[Book Spoilers] Loras and Alleged Character Assassination

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I really don't see the point of making comments like this. Evidently you're on a forum where people do care :) Why comment if you have no interest at all.

I think the issue here is that there are so many relatively easy ways the writers could have included a version of this scene and made it more in line with Loras' character in the books without changing much at all.

It seems like Cogman did take measures to convey his grief but ultimately it was cut because of time constraint and plot convenience. I see his point to a degree in which we're sacrificing the character of someone generally minor for time spent elsewhere.

[The Bear]

Not sure why so many seem to be worked up over Loras. He was one of the more minor characters in the book. We didn't see much of him really. He peacocked around some early and then got gravely injured.

Because they like the character, even if he IS minor, and don't want to see him changed? It's as valid as any complaint about Mel being different, or Robb, or any other character. I personally liked the Loras in the books and would prefer to see more of him in the show (written the way GRRM wrote him), but I understand how TV works and I'm not going to hold it against the producers because he IS a minor character and I accept that. His relevance to the plot and number of scenes have no bearing on how much I like the character.

[Clariana]

No candle is replacing the sun. He is not in a relationship with Olyvar.

My view also. It's just sex. How long has passed since Renly died, anyway? Almost a year perhaps? Loras is young his hormones are still rioting, they didn't die with Renly. So one afternoon he has an encounter with an attractive squire, how does that mean he's betraying his dead lover?

[The Mondrian Oak]

My view also. It's just sex. How long has passed since Renly died, anyway? Almost a year perhaps? Loras is young his hormones are still rioting, they didn't die with Renly. So one afternoon he has an encounter with an attractive squire, how does that mean he's betraying his dead lover?

Moreover, an hypothetical "no candle can replace the sun" could still work in the show. "I tried to forget Renly as hard as I could. I even slept with this lad I had just met, and I enjoyed it. But after sleeping with him, all I could think of was Renly. Which is why I decided to join the Kingsguard: I understood that after the sun has set, no candle can replace it".

I'm not saying the show will do that. I'm just saying the whole thing would be utterly beliavable. Hell, his sleeping with Olyvar could even make is line even stronger!

[Ran]

From the interviews, it's pretty clear that the scene was envisioned to show a more mournful Loras, but this was then cut because, "Hey, it's just a plot device anyways." :P Half-assed characterization sucks.

Loras has never mentioned Renly, has never shown the slightest bit of grief. It's been maybe 4 months since his lover died. It seems to me his first sexual contact since then would hint at that grief. It didn't, and now we know why -- has nothing to do with his somehow secretly mourning, it's just that they cut that scene way down and dispensed with anything (even a direction to the actor to seem a bit more tentative) hinting at anything complicated like, you know, emotions.

This could have been so easily avoided. Have him in bed with the guy, and then he's the one who pulls away, who goes off to get wine, who seems nervous or unsure or vaguely sad, and it's our handsome young squire who comes up to him and drags him back to bed. Voila, without needing to change a single line, Loras is now characterized as someone in mourning attempting (and perhaps failing) to rebound.

[The Mondrian Oak]

From the interviews, it's pretty clear that the scene was envisioned to show a more mournful Loras, but this was then cut because, "Hey, it's just a plot device anyways." :P Half-assed characterization sucks.

Loras has never mentioned Renly, has never shown the slightest bit of grief. It's been maybe 4 months since his lover died. It seems to me his first sexual contact since then would hint at that grief. It didn't, and now we know why -- has nothing to do with his somehow secretly mourning, it's just that they cut that scene way down and dispensed with anything (even a direction to the actor to seem a bit more tentative) hinting at anything complicated like, you know, emotions.

This could have been so easily avoided. Have him in bed with the guy, and then he's the one who pulls away, who goes off to get wine, who seems nervous or unsure or vaguely sad, and it's our handsome young squire who comes up to him and drags him back to bed. Voila, without needing to change a single line, Loras is now characterized as someone in mourning attempting (and perhaps failing) to rebound.

Well, one can regret doing something AFTER doing it, not necessarily while doing it. One can even regret ENJOYING something! This could perfectly be Loras' case.

[Mulled Wino]

Moreover, an hypothetical "no candle can replace the sun" could still work in the show. "I tried to forget Renly as hard as I could. I even slept with this lad I had just met, and I enjoyed it. But after sleeping with him, all I could think of was Renly. Which is why I decided to join the Kingsguard: I understood that after the sun has set, no candle can replace it".

I'm not saying the show will do that. I'm just saying the whole thing would be utterly beliavable. Hell, his sleeping with Olyvar could even make is line even stronger!

Point taken, this really could be a case of jumping the gun on Loras's devotion to Renly.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I think some people are giving this scene way too much credit and are going out of their way to defend it for some reason...does it really make any sense that Loras would tell a complete stranger about his family's secret plans??

"Loras is good at knocking men off horses with a stick, it does not make him a good judge of character."

But it wasn't a clever mechanism, it was a lazy one. Why would any person just willingly tell secret family plans to any squire they had never met before simply because they're fucking them? Loras isn't the smartest person in the series, but he's not that dumb. A clever mechanism would be replacing one of Olenna's waiters or eavesdropping through walls. Showing Loras just spilling the beans to a pretty face because he's horny is lazy, as well as a complete destruction of the one truly good quality he had in the books.

Did he spill the beans easily? No he did not, Loras told the squire that his betrothed doesn't even know he likes the company of men. Then it cuts to the squire and LF. The squire tells LF that "it took long enough" basically he didn't get the information on who his betrothed was easily.

Loras likes reading books with pictures in them...

But he's never mentioned Renly, shows no signs of regret or sadness, etc. It's bad characterization on the part of the writers, if they actually intended him to convey these things but didn't provide the character the opportunity. Alternatively, he's genuinely moved on from Renly and doesn't care any more, which makes him less sympathetic. Pick your poison.

Do they not get any time except this exact episode to show Loras is still upset by Renly's death? I mean if the show was over you could say that but there's still five episodes this season, and ten episodes next season and maybe even seasons after that where they could show it.

and as far as Loras needing to mention Renly I disagree, when I lost a close relative I couldn't bear to even think about them without breaking down and crying for a few months. I couldn't say their name to anyone and if anyone said those stupid words "I'm sorry for your loss" it just upset me.

The show made Loras heir to Highgarden and with that came the inability for Loras to get the time to mourn Renly without being thrown into a marriage pact(or two). He doesn't get the luxury of dwelling on Renly's death.

~~~~~~~~~~

I went through all sixteen pages of this thread and didn't see anyone mention the fact that Loras is going to be married soon and after he's married he might be unable to be with men. At least it's going to be more difficult for him to have a relationship/sex with a man after he's married. This is a concern he's bringing up to Olyver.

The fact that not much time has gone by is totally irrelevant to the fact that Loras doesn't have much time before he's going to be locked into a political marriage and unable to get away with picking up a random guy that finds him attractive. There's no way that Loras turns down this opportunity as he might never get it again.

[The Dragon & The Wolf]

If Loras' actions show that of him being stereotypical then it is of him simply being a man doesn't matter his orientation... he's still going to have a sexual appetite. As far as his grief & mourning for Renly the show hasn't explored that as explicitly as the books (ex. the scene where he goes berserk & kills the rainbow guard members) so I think that is something that can be easily disregarded to non-book readers. I do agree however the only mistake he made, which seemed very strange, was the reveal of his families intentions to a for the most part stranger- was character assassination if anything. Also I wonder how the writers will handle his confrontation w/ Brienne in season 4 because in season 2 after Renly's death Loras says to Margaery that he doesn't believe Brienne to be responsible and that Marg shouldn't either.