[Book Spoilers] Loras and Alleged Character Assassination

[Darth Pipes]

It's character assassination insofar as

"once the sun has set, no candle can replace it."

He seemed pretty happy with that candle squire

Agreed. It made his relationship with Renly look like it wasn't that important.

[Frumpus]

I posted this in the other Loras thread:

I found it stereotypical and one-dimensional to be honest. I mean this kind of thing was forward thinking in the late 90s but come on. Closet gay dude is an insatiable slut. OK.

Tyrion has sex with lots of whores and nobody ever cared. Loras screws one guy after his lover died and you have to resort to this kind of BS?

Get over it. Loras isn't that important that his loss of devotion to Renly should ruin the show for you or anyone else. He is an incredibly minor character who only has half a season's worth of appearances left.

[Penguin king]

I'm surprised people really care. Loras is a peripheral character who makes no significant impact to the plot of the story in ASOIAF. He does some stuff in AFFC and that is really about it.

The Tyrell's are a matriarchy and the men are the bimbos, hence he is being portrayed as such.

People don't rate characters based on how important they are to the plot. There's all sorts of reasons to care about a character. Sometimes the less well developed characters are even more popular because people can project onto them what ever character traits they'd prefer.

[Mulled Wino]

My beef was that Loras just started blabbing to this guy like a fool.

[Lord Godric]

It's character assassination insofar as

"once the sun has set, no candle can replace it."

He seemed pretty happy with that candle squire

Yeah, I am mostly disappointed because of this. It's hard to take Loras seriously if they do keep this line in when we're to believe he's just sleeping with any squire who gives him a look. I really was hoping to see this line delievered, but I don't think we will now because there is very little in the show to even indicate that there was a strong romantic relationship between Renly and Loras. The show only has Loras using Renly for political gain and then once he died hopped in bed with any man who would take him. It's not only a sloppy gay stereotype, it's changing his relationship with Renly and by association other characters as well.

[Penguin king]

Tyrion has sex with lots of whores and nobody ever cared. Loras screws one guy after his lover died and you have to resort to this kind of BS?

Get over it. Loras isn't that important that his loss of devotion to Renly should ruin the show for you or anyone else. He is an incredibly minor character who only has half a season's worth of appearances left.

Tyrion and Robert both have "one true loves" who they can't get over, yet they're both major womanizers. Theon also sleeps with pretty much any woman he can get his hands on, yet for some reason it's only a "negative stereotype" when a gay character does it

[teemo]

I hate it when people write, "Get over it." It's so rude and immature.

It's hard for me to classify it as "character assassination" because we never had a Loras or even Tyrell POV, but it's a little disconcerting that Loras hasn't appeared devastated over Renly's death since it happened, and the first time he really gets some spotlight again is him having sex with a random dude very nonchalantly and talking about who he's supposed to marry.

Now if there was some kind of sadness leading up to it, or a reminder more recently of Loras' feelings for Renly then I would be more understanding. But that was a huge part of Loras' character. But I'll give it some time...maybe within the next couple of weeks Loras will have some kind of convo about Renly or love to someone. Who knows.

[oakenhelm]

With the Red Keep so crowded, Tyrion could not hope to go unnoticed. Ser Balon Swann stood guard on the door, and Ser Loras Tyrell on the drawbridge. He stopped to exchange pleasantries with both of them. It was strange to see the Knight of Flowers all in white when before he had always been as colorful as a rainbow. "How old are you, Ser Loras?" Tyrion asked him.

"Seventeen, my lord."

Seventeen, and beautiful, and already a legend. Half the girls in the Seven Kingdoms want to bed him, and all the boys want to be him. "If you will pardon my asking, ser—why would anyone choose to join the Kingsguard at seventeen?"

"Prince Aemon the Dragonknight took his vows at seventeen," Ser Loras said, "and your brother Jaime was younger still."

"I know their reasons. What are yours? The honor of serving beside such paragons as Meryn Trant and Boros Blount?" He gave the boy a mocking grin. "To guard the king's life, you surrender your own. You give up your lands and titles, give up hope of marriage, children . . . "

"House Tyrell continues through my brothers," Ser Loras said. "It is not necessary for a third son to wed, or breed."

"Not necessary, but some find it pleasant. What of love?"

"When the sun has set, no candle can replace it."

"Is that from a song?" Tyrion cocked his head, smiling. "Yes, you are seventeen, I see that now."

Ser Loras tensed. "Do you mock me?"

A prickly lad. "No. If I've given offense, forgive me. I had my own love once, and we had a song as well." I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. He bid Ser Loras a good evening and went on his way.

Note that Tyrion says "love". He doesn't say woman's love, just "love". Loras gave his answer based on the question "What of love?". I think the escene was extremely out of character.

My problem is not that Loras fucked someone else, but that he seemed quite happy, playful and talked to much, for being with a complete extranger, and Renly dying not so long ago. I think he sould've been more sorrowful and bitter, and with more grieve during the escene.

thanks for the quote. :)

The conversation is sort of like Ben to Jon, in terms of the folly of the certainty of youth.

But I do think Tyrion was mocking him. Not for being gay but for being young and committing himself to the KG.

I actually don't think this quote helps either argument now that I have reread it. It only tells us that he is solemn. That does not preclude jumping into bed with someone or even telling them something we maybe shouldn't.

But I think I tend to agree that the scene was a bit odd. I won't defend it per se. However I don't think the candle quote is useful. It may just be bad for other reasons

[Words of Winter]

In general, I think most sex scenes take away from the story. There are exceptions. The early Jamie/Cersei was necessary, though not too graphic, thankfully. The Ygritte/Jon scene was essential to the his character development (although it wasn't built up well in the TV series.) The Renly/Loras scene was necessary in the TV series (and could have done better.) This one was not. Although, I may not go so far as to say this was character assassintion, I would say this was extremely divergent from the books, weakened the character of the TV Loras and was poorly executed.

There was no emotion, other than lust, in the scene. Loras loved Renly. When he was killed, he sought vengence, changed allegiances, and fought with the Lannisters instead of against them. He was in pain. The book Loras and the tv Loras were in pain. There was no regret in this scene, just, 'bom chicka wow wow, thank you man, oh and I'm gonna marry Sansa Stark. Now come get your man, you stud.' I could envision a scene where they are sitting (clothed or 1 with his shirt off), the other guy unbuttoning Loras' shirt, kissing on the bed (much like the Renly/Margery scene) where he then he pulls away, saying "I can't. --I . . . I love Renly, I still do. --- I want to, I just can't, not now." Then the other guy says something like, "So you loved him?" and Loras replies, "Yes, I would have done anything for him. (pause, under his breath) 'When the sun goes down, no candle can replace it.' Silence. He gets up, goes to get a cup of wine, softly laughs under his breath and says 'and if this isn't bad enough, I'm being forced to marry a she-wolf.' Then he chugs the wine

Also, in the world of the TV series or the book series, I have difficult time believing a highborn knight who is secretly gay (although widely understood as such) would jump into bed with a commoner he has never seen. Some squire (who turns out to be a male-whore) comes up, says, 'hey man, I like how you handle your sword. Wanna see my lance.' Even if he wasn't grieving, he would have the guy killed for 'insulting him' or at the very lease would not literally just go jump in the bed with him. I understand lust, but, much as many may not like it, a double standard exists in this world and I assume theirs too. He would be judicious in his escapades.

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

Loras didn't really have a character to assassinate imo.

There is not enough of Loras in the books to merit anything from this episode as a character assasination.

The fact that the marriage plot has been so durastically changed is a bigger deal to me (not that I actually mind it) than Loras sleeping around with a squire.

[flyerhawk]

It's hard to take Loras seriously because he wasn't a serious character in the books. He has almost no relevant except to highlight the motivations of other characters.

[Golden Lion]

I had more problem with Loras spilling his family's plans.

It's not character assassination for Loras to rebound on the first person to show him interest, he's gone from being loved by Renly to being alone. Rebound is expected.

However, the blabbing the plans just irks me as something a Tyrell wouldn't do, especially to a squire.

[Zar Lannister]

He mourns Renly, but that doesn't mean he took a chastity vow. Life goes on.

But that's not what Book Loras did. He did take a Chastity vow. He took the white!

Then again, the supression of Willas and Garlan accounts for the variations in TV Loras. Basically, Loras has now to play Willas' part in the show.

I suppose the beef between Martells and Tyrells will be played with the death of Willas in the joust with Oberyn.

[Zar Lannister]

I mean, the TV Version of Loras took a different path from the book Version very early on even when Loras had the scenes with Renly and whispered in his ear to seize the throne for himself.

[flyerhawk]

However, the blabbing the plans just irks me as something a Tyrell wouldn't do, especially to a squire.

Why? It's just a squire, not someone to worry much about. And he just had some highly immoral in Westeros sex with that squire so the squire isn't likely to want to blab about the experience.

So unless Loras thinks that the squire is an actual spy, there isn't much reason to be mum especially given how much he likely wants to complain a bit about it to someone who "understands".

[Zar Lannister]

My beef was that Loras just started blabbing to this guy like a fool.

Loras is a bit of an impulsive fool in the books as well. There's the reckless Dragonstone ploy, for example.

[scurvy]

Is it possible that Joffrey out dances his Hand by naming Loras to the Kingsguard to prevent Loras from wedding and bedding his mother? I wouldn't put it past the showrunners to have Joffrey undermine Tywin to protect his mother, especially after some Cersei encouragement.

We know they won't be wed, so that's the most obvious out.

[scurvy]

Loras is a bit of an impulsive fool in the books as well. There's the reckless Dragonstone ploy, for example.

Unreliable narrator. We don't even know that Loras led an attack on Dragonstone. We only know he left Kingslanding after promising to do so. After that all other reports are as reliable as the one of Lord Manderly having beheaded Lord Hand Davos and posted his hand and head with an onion in the mouth on the ramparts of White Harbor.

[Dove]

That seems like it could be an easy way to get Loras in the Kingsguard and to get across to the Tyrells that Joffrey isn't as easily cowed as they thought.

Cersei pleads with Joffrey, he grudgingly gives in and defies Tywin, appointing Loras to the Kingsguard. When Marg opposes it, Joffrey starts to show her how he feels about his wimmen-folk disagreeing with him.

Maybe.

I liked the idea of Loras taking the white himself out of romanticism/also to protect his sister in the books, but I doubt it'll work out that way in the show. We'll see.

[flyerhawk]

That seems like it could be an easy way to get Loras in the Kingsguard and to get across to the Tyrells that Joffrey isn't as easily cowed as they thought.

Cersei pleads with Joffrey, he grudgingly gives in and defies Tywin, appointing Loras to the Kingsguard. When Marg opposes it, Joffrey starts to show her how he feels about his wimmen-folk disagreeing with him.

Maybe.

That makes pretty good sense. And once Marg realizes that Joffrey can't be as easily handled as she thought, his utility for House Tyrell comes into question.