[Book Spoilers] Loras and Alleged Character Assassination

[siberia82]

I wish we could've seen the longer version of the scene that Cogman mentioned where it would've been a bit more obvious that Loras was struggling with his emotions. Considering that Loras is only a secondary (or even tertiary) character, his scene in "Kissed by Fire" has created a very strong negative reaction. If Cogman couldn't include his original idea in full due to time constraints, perhaps it would've been better to drop the whole Olyvar subplot and come up with some other way for the info of Sansa's secret betrothal to be leaked to the Lannisters.

[The Mondrian Oak]

I don't want my LGBTQI characters to be perfect angels. To me, that's just as bad as them being portrayed as stereotypes. I like them to be realistic HUMAN characters with human flaws and human strengths. Several people in the TV series have referred to Loras as hotheaded, and that's how he acts in the books more often than not. Why can't Loras be a gifted knight but a poor political schemer/ "a fool"? That's human, that's realistic, many people wouldn't be politically savvy in this world and that has nothing to do with his sexuality.

THANK YOU for talking sense. Those who want gay carachters to be cheesily flawless BECAUSE of their being gay should go watch that Glee/ The New Normal shit.

[Winter's Knight]

Tch. Since when is Loras a gay angel? He's arrogant, reckless, vengeful and not too brigh. But he's also brave, loves his sister and loyal. As late as the end of Storm he vowed to never betray Renly by word or deed. In Feast he attacked Dragonstone at least in part to revenge himself on Stannis.

There's nothing wrong with casual sex and lord knows I'm not one to say no to a bit of m/m lovemaking but Sunday's episode robs Loras of one of his redeeming qualities and reduces his complexity to just another tired trope about gay men.

Now, I'm reading that the scene was meant to be longer and I don't see why we couldn't have Oleanna's lecture on bowel movements shortened to fit it in.

[Joyful Union]

Now, I'm reading that the scene was meant to be longer and I don't see why we couldn't have Oleanna's lecture on bowel movements shortened to fit it in.

Probably because Olenna is entertaining, while the emotions of a really minor character arent.

[Ran]

Those who want gay carachters to be cheesily flawless

Loras is far from flawless, what with his scheming and conniving with Renly, his pushing him to claim the throne, his arrogance, his dismissal of Brienne, etc.

Indeed, besides being good as a fighter and being brave, his only real -- and sympathetic -- virtue is his devotion to Renly.

What you've done is use a straw man argument. No one wants a "flawless" character. They'd like a flawed character to at least retain the virtue that makes him sympathetic, rather than drop that away and make him seem rather worthless.

Joyful Union,

But fluffy entertainment shouldn't stand in the way of trying to properly characterize characters, minor or otherwise. You're basically saying they're being half-assed about things, which is what everyone else is saying.

[Runaway Penguin]

1. Loras was granted position on Kingsguard after the Blackwater. So he theoretically cannot be heir and eligible to marry again, unless dismissed by King.

2. The scene kind of removes another step on Sansa's paranoia, or rather two steps (first "Tehy care only for your claim" and then later on realisation it was all for money and Littlefinger).

The scene (and the Loras plot in all) seem to nail last coffin into any hope for Sansa "getting rid of naivette" arc - first she didn't snitch on Ned, now she didn't snitch on Tyrells...

[Hodors Shlong]

I wish we could've seen the longer version of the scene that Cogman mentioned where it would've been a bit more obvious that Loras was struggling with his emotions. Considering that Loras is only a secondary (or even tertiary) character, his scene in "Kissed by Fire" has created a very strong negative reaction. If Cogman couldn't include his original idea in full due to time constraints, perhaps it would've been better to drop the whole Olyvar subplot and come up with some other way for the info of Sansa's secret betrothal to be leaked to the Lannisters.

It only created a negative reaction with some of the hardcore book readers...The show isn't written specifically for them, it's written for the masses. He's not goIng to bend over backwards for a minor character just to please people on a few forums, who most likely would find something else to complain about anyway.

[Zar Lannister]

1. Loras was granted position on Kingsguard after the Blackwater. So he theoretically cannot be heir and eligible to marry again, unless dismissed by King.

I don't remember this happening in the show.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

I didn't like the whole making him into the heir I get not wanting too many tyrells or mentioning ppl they haven't introduced yet, I think the whole open secret of his sexuality was let go by his family because he was the third son, had an older bro thats married n wasn't likely to make any great match so being in KG was great opportunity for him. But the contrast between QoT n marg working behind the scenes n him just telling a random one night stand all their plans was weak.

[teemo]

What's the longer scene? I have a gay friend that watches and said, "Oh, of course - the gay guy fucks some random dude." Wasn't really pissed, but a little annoyed. I really doubt it's only book readers who noticed it. I know someone else who watches (definitely not a friend) who said it was "a perfect plot device because gay guys fuck anyone, so the writers know what they're doing."

[Tempra]

What's the longer scene? I have a gay friend that watches and said, "Oh, of course - the gay guy fucks some random dude." Wasn't really pissed, but a little annoyed. I really doubt it's only book readers who noticed it. I know someone else who watches (definitely not a friend) who said it was "a perfect plot device because gay guys fuck anyone, so the writers know what they're doing."

How much time had been wasted on brothels and prostitutes in this show? Casual, random sex is hardly portrayed as the domain of gay men.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Loras is far from flawless, what with his scheming and conniving with Renly, his pushing him to claim the throne, his arrogance, his dismissal of Brienne, etc.

Indeed, besides being good as a fighter and being brave, his only real -- and sympathetic -- virtue is his devotion to Renly.

What you've done is use a straw man argument. No one wants a "flawless" character. They'd like a flawed character to at least retain the virtue that makes him sympathetic

I'm not arguing with those who want Loras not to be shallow because it shows disaffection towards Renly; I'm arguing with those who want Loras not to be shallow because he's gay. That is noo strawman argument, to me.

[Winter's Knight]

How much time had been wasted on brothels and prostitutes in this show? Casual, random sex is hardly portrayed as the domain of gay men.

There is no counterweight to this scene though. I can point to Robb/Talissa or Jon/Ygritte as counter examples to the brothel scenes but the Loras scene is literally the first gay scene in two scenes?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Indeed, besides being good as a fighter and being brave, his only real -- and sympathetic -- virtue is his devotion to Renly.

I'm not sure how virtuous it is for a member of the Kingsguard to be bopping the King, particularly when he's married. The fact that Renly and Loras couldn't keep it in their pants despite the official Kinsguard/King relationship didn't speak well of either of them, IMHO.

I wasn't a fan of the scene, but I suppose one virtue of it was that it did buttress Loras as likely being gay and not just bi, which does emphasize the rawness of the deals being pitched to Sansa and Cersei. Spoon-feeding the viewers, so to speak.

[Ran]

The fact that Renly and Loras couldn't keep it in their pants despite the official Kinsguard/King relationship didn't speak well of either of them, IMHO.

I don't believe it's established that the Rainbow Guard are sworn to vows of chastity, however. In fact, there's a lord among their number (Bryce Caron), and when Brienne gets the cloak, all she swears is "my life for yours."

(And technically speaking, the letter of the vows of the Kingsguard is that you won't father any children. As Martin has said, the intent is celibacy, so you won't form attachments to anyone else. But besides the fact that Loras's and Renly's liasons were unlikely to lead to children -- I devoutly hope -- there's probably nothing obviously wrong with a king and his kingsguard being... well, attached beyond what might happen if they have a falling out. But then, you need not have to be romatically attached to a king to fall out with him [see Jaime and Aerys])

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I don't believe it's established that the Rainbow Guard are sworn to vows of chastity, however. In fact, there's a lord among their number (Bryce Caron), and when Brienne gets the cloak, all she swears is "my life for yours."

(And technically speaking, the letter of the vows of the Kingsguard is that you won't father any children. As Martin has said, the intent is celibacy, so you won't form attachments to anyone else. But besides the fact that Loras's and Renly's liasons were unlikely to lead to children -- I devoutly hope -- there's probably nothing obviously wrong with a king and his kingsguard being... well, attached beyond what might happen if they have a falling out. But then, you need not have to be romatically attached to a king to fall out with him [see Jaime and Aerys])

There's still the whole issue of having sex with the King while he's married, which I don't think would fit with the vows of the Seven. It certainly didn't seem like an okay thing for Osney Kettleback to have sex with Cersei.

In any case, to the extent Loras' excursion damaged his character in the eyes of some, I think it's still very fixable. All they need really do is have him profess his love for Renly as the reason he accepts appointment into the Kingsguard for Joffrey. "If I can't have the person I loved, I won't have anyone else", perhaps accompanied by a statement of regret over his fling.

[Ran]

There's still the whole issue of having sex with the King while he's married, which I don't think would fit with the vows of the Seven. It certainly didn't seem like an okay thing for Osney Kettleback to have sex with Cersei.

But no one much cared about Robert sleeping around. Robert wasn't likely to pop out any sons from his womb, nor was Renly. And fornicating with the king's mother ... well, that's never wise, right? Or the king's wife. But the king himself, well... whatever, probably.

One has to be pragmatic about these things, in Westeros.

(And really, who's going to punish a kingsguard for failing his vow? If the king doesn't care, it's really no one's business. Matters may have changed now, thanks to the High Septon, but that's something else entirely.)

[Quivver]

My beef was that Loras just started blabbing to this guy like a fool.

Its called "pillow talk".

But that's not what Book Loras did. He did take a Chastity vow. He took the white!

IIRC the vow he took just said he wouldn't take a wife. Did not some of the other Whitecloaks have women that they spent "quality time" with?

WHO was the guy who played Littlefinger's spy?

If I heard correctly (I'll have to go back and watch again), but when Loras asked what his new lover/spy's name was, the guy replied "Polliver"

Since this season seems to be a much different story than the books, it makes me wonder what Littlefinger's real intentions are w/Sansa.

[Honey Badger]

I was okay with it. Loras wasn't fleshed out in the books, so there will be some interpretation on the show. He's still hot headed and wants to charge in battle; that part is more important to me than his vow of chastity after Renly. He'll still have the character "currency" to charge at a siege and supposedly get his face scalded off by oil.

[Zar Lannister]

IIRC the vow he took just said he wouldn't take a wife. Did not some of the other Whitecloaks have women that they spent "quality time" with?

"When the sun has set, no candle can replace it." is pretty much the dealbreaker with Loras conviction. It's what's missing in my opinion from the whole Loras ordeal. There isn't a slight hint of remorse in that scene. Certainly, Loras doesn't have a vow to keep here because he's not a Kingsguard; but the driving force into taking that position was Renly's death (the same death that triggered him to a rampage killing others sworn to protect him). And that burst of emotion towards Renly is what is missing in the Loras we saw on TV, IMO.

Going on the kingsguard members fooling around, what did Aerys Oakheart call himself after fooling around with Arianne?" The Soiled Knight. He knew he had broken a vow he took.