(BOOK SPOILERS) Nonsense

[BorhPT]

I'm a bit disappointed with the way Robb's story is going. He's such a wonderful character in the books and I'm sad that the people who haven't read the books can't realize what a great person he was, a great strategist and a good king (IMO). The TV Robb is slowly pushing the viewers away from him. In the first season so many people loved him for what he did, but since Talisa was introduced he's a different character much more confusing and making bad decisions.

I think in the books he only had one bad decision, breaking his promise and marrying Jeyne, but he was so young and in love, it's quite understandable and it actually made me love him more because it showed me he has flaws, like any other character, but he was really trying to amend it and I was seriously rooting for him to be successful.

The TV Robb seems to not care so much about his homeland, his bannermen and his honor. The fact that Greywind has not been seen yet on the 3rd season is so bad. I remember back in time when I was reading and Robb used to think on Greywind and be sad because he couldn't have him at his side so much as he would like. Book Robb was such a lovable character.

IMO In the TV, this storyline is the worst of all. It's so messed up, I can't really understand what is going on, what his he doing and planning and why. The army numbers is another thing that bothers me a lot. it's so confusing. But most of all, it's the worst because it's such a major storyline, that changes the story for almost every character in the books and has (maybe) the biggest impact on the viewers/readers and the story.

Also, D&D's goal was to get to the RW, but with all this changes I think it will just be a 'great' episode but not as half as remarkable as Ned's execution and people won't be so angry and might not even cry for it, which was supposed to (I guess). I don't mind the minor changes on other storylines, but this one was vital, at least for me because Robb was my favorite character, the one I could identify the most with me.

I've been making a sacrifice to like Robb's story in the TV, but I feel that I can't do it anymore. This Robb is making people dislike him and the RW won't have a big effect as they hoped for.

P.S.: I like the actor, I just don't like the character.

[StannisandDaeny]

I liked Robb on first read too, but as I re-read he irritated me to no end. He just became such a self-righteous arrogant prick. Especially when he says 'I'm sending Theon. Bye mother. Come, Grey Wind' (his major mistake, even worse than marrying Jeyne imo). He gradually went downhill since he put on that crown as observed by Catelyn, and he blamed his own failures on Edmure, and the whole Jeyne thing remains to this day the dumbest decision in the book ever. 'I did it for honour' ehh, what? Yeah, for honour, but at the same time, you're endangering everyone else that follows you with this decision and breaking a vow, which isn't very honorable either, on the contrary... eh. So no, to me both Robbs aren't exactly all that. The main thing book Robb did have going for him was that first of, of course, he was only a kid, and how right up until the end, he gave the feeling he could defeat the Lannisters and that's why I (and many people with me, no doubt) initially kept rooting for him (before 'defecting' to Stannis after the RW, eh eh), show Robb doesn't really give that impression.

[stunningsteve]

Looking at the big picture, yes he did: Stannis was defeated, the Iron Throne hasn't turned against the Ironborn, leaving him as the only opponent of the combined might of the Ironborn and, more important, Houses Tyrell and Lannister. He's vastly outnumbered, has no allies and his home was taken. In the meantime the Tyrell-Lannister alliance can bid their time, but they will eventually win, if anything, because of superior numbers.

Ironborn and power in the TV show? I propably have missed that one. Their power came from holding Moat Cailin, but for some reason they cut that out. I honestly don't get it. They just could have mentioned it during Balon's "war-council" with Theon and Asha that Vic is already on his way with the Iron Fleetand the rest happens off-screen. His on-screen debut still could happen before the kingsmoot. In the show they have Deepwood Motte, which has no real worth. I'm not sure if they have Torrhen's Square, but it's only slightly better than DwM. Very impressive. They hold THE NORTH ;)

And now TV Robb has to suffer cause of some writers lazyness. The decision to take Casterly Rock instead reclaiming the North was the dumbest thing they could have done. Even crossing the river once more would made a better explanation dealing with the Freys again. But asking for men to take Casterly Rock argghhhh :bang:

[Stag Country]

It was definitely not the most well thought out rationalization, but since they didn't show Robb losing Moat Caitlin (did they even show Cailin at all?)....these seems to be the best way to fix the hash they made of his story.

[HouseLark]

i, for one, never felt the books were all that much about military strategy. grrm himself seems to be quite unsure of populations/army sizes.

so this is really a minor inaccuracy for me.

Yeah, I agree with that. The weakest element of ASoIaF are the tactical elements of the battles. They are visceral and therefore enjoyable to read but Martin's battle scenes aren't in the same league as someone like Bernard Cornwell.

[stunningsteve]

It was definitely not the most well thought out rationalization, but since they didn't show Robb losing Moat Caitlin (did they even show Cailin at all?)....these seems to be the best way to fix the hash they made of his story.

It was never shown if I remember correctly but mentioned once or twice. Just read here http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Moat_Cailin#cite_note-2 that the Ironborn hold Moat Cailin. It is supposed to be said on a Season 2 Bluray feature. Anyone who got the BR can confirm this?

[David Selig]

The Karstarks have marched home. The Young Wolf has lost half his army*, his days are numbered.

*= since the war starts.

But before that there was this line from Robb:

"The Karstarks are gone. Almost half our forces."

[juanml82]

Yeah, well, they have to make it dramatic and increase the odds. Far less would be at risk if he said "Karstark and 1/12th of our forces". Most people aren't keeping up with the actual amount of forces, and few even remember the amount of bannermen shown in season 1, most of them who disappear after naming him King of the North.

If anything, it makes his decision to execute him instead of keeping him hostage more controversial. As the show goes, the North's only dubious chance of victory hang on an agreement with House Frey.

The other, rather important, issue, is how much sympathetic Robb Stark and the Northern cause are becoming for the viewers and of that I have my doubts. I don't think the RW will be as much a shock as in the books because the spotlight is in Danny, Tyrion and Arya, not in Robb and Cat.

I would have preferred Greywind chewed a few more fingers instead of the Blackfish punch, but it will have to be added to the rather long list of things HBO can't pull due budget. I guess this series would have been better adapted in a 25 movies long saga or something. TV doesn't seem to be able to cope with the expense of adapting it, and it's way too long and unconventional for movies. A pity.

[SerArthurHeath]

Are there any battle tactics in the book? GRRM has a lot of strengths but partially believable battles, even give the fictional context of the Universe, never ever struck me as one of them

[Stannis the Wight]

Robb sucks. Who cares? Normal TV viewers see the show way differently than us.

He's gonna get it soon anyways, he is in a vulnerable position right now and once the Freys "side" with him viewers will not expect the betrayal. They will probably make it seem hopeful with the Riverlords, Boltons and Freys planning to march on Casterly Rock after the wedding

[Mulled Wino]

Yes. Taking Casterly Rock only dawning on Robb whilst he's at Riverrun AFTER he had spent the entirety of last season in the West is quite dumb.

Fukn christ its stupid, just kill dumb Robb already and put this pathetic attempt at a storyline to bed.

[Mulled Wino]

I forget, did the Freys fight with him? When did he lose them on the tv show?

[Stannis the Wight]

I forget, did the Freys fight with him? When did he lose them on the tv show?

I just watched the scene with Cat & Walder.... Frey does give him his men. The writers overlooked that one.

"His men are yours" her exact words.

[shiola]

It's a TV show. It's not supposed to make logical sense. Plus, it is set in an alternate universe than the books. Some things are the same, but they're separate entities. On the TV show, the Karstarks have 9000 men.

Personally, I wish they would spend less time with Robb's story arc as a whole. He is boring as hell and the love story has been awful. Never thought I'd doze off during an execution. I'm starting to look forward to the Red Wedding.

I will never understand this. A character is boring, so their death and the slaughter of their mother and their bannermen is something to look forward to? The decimation of hope for the North is appropriate because we're sick of Robb scenes and his story with Talisa falls flat? Wow, that's some Joffrey-level justification there.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I forget, did the Freys fight with him? When did he lose them on the tv show?

They just sort of disappear. Or rather I don't really know if they ever appear, despite Cat mentioning that her bargain included Frey troops. IIRC it was 1,000.

I think the point the show is making is that House Frey comes with considerably more troops than the Karstarks brought. Such that if they are able to get them back on his side (Frey never really fully offers his arm to Robb in the show, just sends a small amount of troops as bargained) then they can take CR. This point is fine, really. It's inconsistent with the books but it's not beyond belief that the Freys can offer a large apply to supplement what's left of the Northern army. I'm not really sure why his plan is to attack Casterly Rock though, instead of winning back the North. I guess in the show only Winterfell and Deepwood Motte is lost, but still, even Robb says on the show he can't be King if he can't defend his own lands.

They should've just had him hatch the three pronged northern plan with Frey support. The numbers the armies bring are largely irrelevant.

[Stannis the Wight]

I will never understand this. A character is boring, so their death and the slaughter of their mother and their bannermen is something to look forward to? The decimation of hope for the North is appropriate because we're sick of Robb scenes and his story with Talisa falls flat? Wow, that's some Joffrey-level justification there.

I dunno man I'm really looking forward to it because I want to see how it's going to down on the screen. It sets so many other things in motion as well.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I dunno man I'm really looking forward to it because I want to see how it's going to down on the screen. It sets so many other things in motion as well.

I'm looking forward to it because it's a great scene. Not because Robb's blunders should mean the entire North gets fucked over at the hands of a sociopathic traitor.

[shiola]

I dunno man I'm really looking forward to it because I want to see how it's going to down on the screen. It sets so many other things in motion as well.

That's not what I'm talking about. I want to see it, too. I mean I'm terrified to see it at the same time but gods it's such a big moment, I need to see how it translates. I don't mind if people are excited for it in that sense. It's when people say or insinuate that the RW is justified or even good because of Robb's trainwreck of a story that I get confused and a bit put off.

Maybe I view the characters as too real, and feel too much sympathy, I don't know. But hating Robb's storyline and thinking he's a tool are so different than thinking he brought something as terrible as the RW upon himself. Yes, he brought his own death upon himself. But his mothers, and his bannermen, and his troop, and the entire hope for the North? No. Not in the slightest.

[SerArthurHeath]

I will never understand this. A character is boring, so their death and the slaughter of their mother and their bannermen is something to look forward to? The decimation of hope for the North is appropriate because we're sick of Robb scenes and his story with Talisa falls flat? Wow, that's some Joffrey-level justification there.

Is it really? They aren't real people so appropriate feelings are towards whether you want to keep watching them

[Mulled Wino]

They just sort of disappear. Or rather I don't really know if they ever appear, despite Cat mentioning that her bargain included Frey troops. IIRC it was 1,000.

I think the point the show is making is that House Frey comes with considerably more troops than the Karstarks brought. Such that if they are able to get them back on his side (Frey never really fully offers his arm to Robb in the show, just sends a small amount of troops as bargained) then they can take CR. This point is fine, really. It's inconsistent with the books but it's not beyond belief that the Freys can offer a large apply to supplement what's left of the Northern army. I'm not really sure why his plan is to attack Casterly Rock though, instead of winning back the North. I guess in the show only Winterfell and Deepwood Motte is lost, but still, even Robb says on the show he can't be King if he can't defend his own lands.

They should've just had him hatch the three pronged northern plan with Frey support. The numbers the armies bring are largely irrelevant.

Its inconsistent. There was every indication that the Freys already joined Robb.

Anyway, i want show robb to die because the whole storyline is a disaster. He takes his army from the west to HH to lay siege to an empty freakin castle. Then he marches them back to RR for a funeral. Then he decides ( with the amazing wartime council of a nurse/wife) that he must go back west with a significantly smaller force to fight tywin. But wait, his solution is to go back to a guy he completely betrayed and beg for some troops. Of course this is immediately after he executes his biggest ally for betraying him.

WTF?!?!?!?!?!??!??