(BOOK SPOILERS) Nonsense

[Currawong]

Yes. Taking Casterly Rock only dawning on Robb whilst he's at Riverrun AFTER he had spent the entirety of last season in the West is quite dumb.

Except that for most of last season, a large part of the Lannister forces were also in the west - Tywin only brought them east to KL before Blackwater, arriving just in time along with the Tyrells. Robb marching on Casterly Rock then would not have made any sense at all.

Anyway, I agree with others. Battle scenes and tactics are generally not GRRM's strong point, and the nitty gritty details of those are not that important to the show. I'd say most viewers really couldn't care less about exact numbers of forces, precise maps and so on. They're not watching details of the Normandy invasion in WW2 on History channel!! The main thing the writers needed to show about Robb executing Karstark was that it added to the disaffection within his own forces and resulted in him losing a significant number of troops. It really doesn't matter whether he's lost 25%, 30% or 50% - the main issue is that his overall forces have been weakened, and he is now facing issues within his own side which are largely of his own making. Plus of course we know from last week that dear Edmure's action in leaving Riverrun on his little glory expedition has lost another few hundred knights.

[shiola]

I was like 99% sure the Freys had already sent men with Robb. Didn't Cat say that he would get Frey men "save the 400 staying here to guard the castle" or something like that?

[Mulled Wino]

That's not what I'm talking about. I want to see it, too. I mean I'm terrified to see it at the same time but gods it's such a big moment, I need to see how it translates. I don't mind if people are excited for it in that sense. It's when people say or insinuate that the RW is justified or even good because of Robb's trainwreck of a story that I get confused and a bit put off.

Maybe I view the characters as too real, and feel too much sympathy, I don't know. But hating Robb's storyline and thinking he's a tool are so different than thinking he brought something as terrible as the RW upon himself. Yes, he brought his own death upon himself. But his mothers, and his bannermen, and his troop, and the entire hope for the North? No. Not in the slightest.

Its more of Robb putting all those people in that position. I have this thing in my head where things I watch have to make sense. If they don't, I just hope and root for tragedy for the show goofballs. Basically, all I do in every Robb scene is laugh at how dumb everything is, I want the RW over so that negativity doesnt spill over.

[juanml82]

Well, in the show the North has, through Bolton's bastard 'reconquered' Winterfell, at least in the sense that there are no more Ironborn there, even if they are believed to have put the castle to the torch.

There are probably more Ironborn loose in the North, but the capitol has been, technically, recovered.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Its inconsistent. There was every indication that the Freys already joined Robb.

Anyway, i want show robb to die because the whole storyline is a disaster. He takes his army from the west to HH to lay siege to an empty freakin castle. Then he marches them back to RR for a funeral. Then he decides ( with the amazing wartime council of a nurse/wife) that he must go back west with a significantly smaller force to fight tywin. But wait, his solution is to go back to a guy he completely betrayed and beg for some troops. Of course this is immediately after he executes his biggest ally for betraying him.

WTF?!?!?!?!?!??!??

Well, I think the point is that Cat gets a tiny amount of Freys to join Robb. I'd have to check but I think it was a thousand. I suppose the show is alluding to the fact that House Frey has significantly more troops to offer and with them, Robb will have more than made up for his losses by beheading Rickard Karstark.

In the books we have him going to Walder Frey to cross into the North, but also to win them back as allies by offering Edmure not only as redemption, but also to secure allegiance. So the point here is that he will once again secure allegiance with them but also convince them that they can take Casterly Rock. It's not a good plan by any means, but I don't think the numbers are really inconsistent, it's the reasoning that's pretty poor. I don't get why they didn't just have him returning North, but that's probably because he believes Bolton's bastard to have successfully returned to Winterfell's ruins ...But the whole "We're going home" thing I thought was more powerful than "We're going to prolong this battle and still probably lose."

[Zman1863]

The way the show is laying the foundation for why Robb ends up at the Twins is indeed clumsy to book readers, but I think it's too minor to get upset about. They are having Robb go for Casterly Rock rather than to retake the north because other than what he have seen from Theon's point of view, very little has been said about the impact of the Ironmen. They have also already established through reports by Bolton that Winterfell was retaken but found destroyed. I think they believe that it will be too confusing for people first coming to the story if there are somehow enough Northmen left to have retaken Winterfell but that most of the north is still cut off from Robb's army. It seems they think it will be simpler to frame the story that Robb is going to the Twins to make amends with Frey in order to make one more push to win the war he's been fighting against the Lannisters rather than the book story where he is essentially putting the Lannisters on hiatus so he can deal with the Ironmen.

With the Freys, I would have preferred that early in this season it would have been made clear that he already had them with his host but that they quit and went home on his marriage. They way things are now, the seem to be saying that the Freys didn't send their troops to Robb. It might be believable that a Lord who previously sent you his troops and took them back because of an insult might send them back again after an apology. But if he didn't give Robb his troops when he had the marriage pact, why would anyone believe that he would dangle his troops in front of Robb now that the contract has been broken. It makes what is going to happen much more predictable, although I still doubt that any non book readers will sense anything amiss.

[Mulled Wino]

The way the show is laying the foundation for why Robb ends up at the Twins is indeed clumsy to book readers, but I think it's too minor to get upset about. They are having Robb go for Casterly Rock rather than to retake the north because other than what he have seen from Theon's point of view, very little has been said about the impact of the Ironmen. They have also already established through reports by Bolton that Winterfell was retaken but found destroyed. I think they believe that it will be too confusing for people first coming to the story if there are somehow enough Northmen left to have retaken Winterfell but that most of the north is still cut off from Robb's army. It seems they think it will be simpler to frame the story that Robb is going to the Twins to make amends with Frey in order to make one more push to win the war he's been fighting against the Lannisters rather than the book story where he is essentially putting the Lannisters on hiatus so he can deal with the Ironmen.

With the Freys, I would have preferred that early in this season it would have been made clear that he already had them with his host but that they quit and went home on his marriage. They way things are now, the seem to be saying that the Freys didn't send their troops to Robb. It might be believable that a Lord who previously sent you his troops and took them back because of an insult might send them back again after an apology. But if he didn't give Robb his troops when he had the marriage pact, why would anyone believe that he would dangle his troops in front of Robb now that the contract has been broken. It makes what is going to happen much more predictable, although I still doubt that any non book readers will sense anything amiss.

Personally, I dont care about non-book readers. I dont jusge the show from their perspective.

Being that I have read the books, all I can do us laugh at how horribly the show plot is written. Ive lost respect for the entire Robb Stark storyline and as a result, i care less for the Starks as a whole.

[Tadco26]

I will never understand this. A character is boring, so their death and the slaughter of their mother and their bannermen is something to look forward to? The decimation of hope for the North is appropriate because we're sick of Robb scenes and his story with Talisa falls flat? Wow, that's some Joffrey-level justification there.

It's just hard to blame the Freys for "betraying" tv Robb, when he betrayed them first and they haven't included the Freys on the show since season 1. We don't have the Freys with Bolton telling him that Robb is lost and that someone needs to convince him to give up. We don't have the Big and Little Walder at winterfell being jackasses. We don't have Elmar Frey treating Arya like crap when she was really the "princess" he was pledged to at Harrenhal. That doesn't mean that they all deserve to die in a real world situation, but in the TV world it's hard to feel the Freys are really bad guys for not rejoining the already losing a-hole who broke his oath to them on a whim. At least book Robb realized he made a huge mess of things with his decision, which was made as a teen who just lost both of his brothers, and made the decision because he thought he was doing the right thing with no council. He is also trying to think of ways to repair it from the time he tells Catelyn about his marriage to Jeyne. TV Robb doesn't even seem cognizant that he did anything wrong.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

Personally, I dont care about non-book readers. I dont jusge the show from their perspective.

Being that I have read the books, all I can do us laugh at how horribly the show plot is written. Ive lost respect for the entire Robb Stark storyline and as a result, i care less for the Starks as a whole.

THIS

Everyone keeps spouting this bs about "Oh its a tv show. I don't expect it to be logical..." WTF. Or "the show isn't meant to adhere to the books"...ummmm OKAY. So what the hell is the point of the show? To present an alternate universe of Westeros?

One where certain characters and entire storylines just simply don't exist? And others just come out of thin air?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

THIS

Or "the show isn't meant to adhere to the books"...ummmm OKAY. So what the hell is the point of the show? To present an alternate universe of Westeros?

One where certain characters and entire storylines just simply don't exist? And others just come out of thin air?

The point is to adapt the novels into a show that is strictly good television. Not to translate verbatim what happens in books to television. Because taking a book and transcribing it perfectly to a TV series is impossible and not necessarily the best thing to do. If you just want the books 100%, then unfortunately you have to read the books.

[Tadco26]

I understand and accept that everything won't match exactly with the books, but what is the point of changing numbers of troops, which they don't show the battles for anyway. Keeping the same numbers as the books doesn't seem to make much sense or save them any money or time. And certainly being a TV show that has to change some things in the adaptation doesn't justify making new story lines that don't make sense.

[shiola]

THIS

Everyone keeps spouting this bs about "Oh its a tv show. I don't expect it to be logical..." WTF. Or "the show isn't meant to adhere to the books"...ummmm OKAY. So what the hell is the point of the show? To present an alternate universe of Westeros?

One where certain characters and entire storylines just simply don't exist? And others just come out of thin air?

It's not "BS" and if you truly do not understand that, then why do you even watch it? You don't seem to enjoy it much. The concept of interpretation seems to be a bit over your head.

[teemo]

I understand why it's not 100% following the books, but yes, parts of it are a bit ludicrous. I have a friend that completely turned on Robb (who she used to love) last night (hasn't read the books) because she doesn't understand why he doesn't care about the Ironmen or recapturing the north. She feels like he doesn't know what the hell he's doing, his plans to get the Freys to help are ridiculous considering he betrayed them, and she feels like he doesn't care at all about his family and that Arya and Sansa are still (supposedly) being held captive in KL. She even said, "I hope someone kills him now." Ouch. And she LOVED him pre-Talisa.

She's even astute enough to say, "The Karstarks are HALF of his bannermen????" She felt the writing was sloppy and that it was nonsensical, and she doesn't even read the books!

However...since Robb's end is near, in the grand scheme of things I guess his exact battles plans aren't a huge deal, although for some people like my friend above, they are - because they don't make sense. To most people though, they probably didn't even notice. And the way they did it last night was an easy way to bring the Freys to people's minds again and he even reminded us that he was supposed to marry a Frey girl.

[scurvy]

Twyin says, "the Young Wolf has lost half his army."

I think I've figured it out. Karstarks are headed back North. The Freys abandoned him (Robb says they haven't yet committed to the Lannisters yet), but they also are no longer supporting Robb. And, Tywin knows the Boltons have abandoned Robb too. That's three of his largest bannermen. Plus any losses he's suffered in the field.

Now, granted this doesn't totally add up compared to the book totals- but the Umbers don't have a lot of men given their physical location, nary a mention of Manderly yet. Reeds haven't committed any men. Mormont also a very small house. Glover appeared with Greatjon in Season 1.

The Riverlands are a forgotten land and presumably are not considered Robb's army for these purposes. They are the Tully army. But, the rest of the Riverlands are in shambles, so the army must be considered scattered. Plus, the three largest castles are Harenhal, now under Bolton, Riverrun, and the Twins.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

At this point I don't even think non-readers know what houses/forces even remain to Robb. I barely even know and I've watched and read way too many times.

[flyerhawk]

For you folks that are questioning why TV Robb didn't go home to Winterfell, why doesn't book Robb go immediately home to Winterfell? Certainly the book justifications were just as suspect as the TV justifications.

Some of you guys are really funny. Troop counts? Seriously? How in the world is that relevant?

FTR, anyone who says "I don't care about the non-book readers" probably shouldn't waste their time watching the show.

[Reposado]

Twyin says, "the Young Wolf has lost half his army."

I think I've figured it out. Karstarks are headed back North. The Freys abandoned him (Robb says they haven't yet committed to the Lannisters yet), but they also are no longer supporting Robb. And, Tywin knows the Boltons have abandoned Robb too. That's three of his largest bannermen. Plus any losses he's suffered in the field.

Now, granted this doesn't totally add up compared to the book totals- but the Umbers don't have a lot of men given their physical location, nary a mention of Manderly yet. Reeds haven't committed any men. Mormont also a very small house. Glover appeared with Greatjon in Season 1.

The Riverlands are a forgotten land and presumably are not considered Robb's army for these purposes. They are the Tully army. But, the rest of the Riverlands are in shambles, so the army must be considered scattered. Plus, the three largest castles are Harenhal, now under Bolton, Riverrun, and the Twins.

doesnt robb also say that the karstarks took almost half his army

It's not "BS" and if you truly do not understand that, then why do you even watch it? You don't seem to enjoy it much. The concept of interpretation seems to be a bit over your head.

so we shouldnt expect a show to be logical?

[shiola]

At this point I don't even think non-readers know what houses/forces even remain to Robb. I barely even know and I've watched and read way too many times.

He has Talisa... and.. And...

[shiola]

so we shouldnt expect a show to be logical?

That's not the part I was replying to. Perhaps I should have bolded it or been more clear. I was responding more to the notion that the show should follow the books very closely, and not make up its own characters, etc

[flyerhawk]

so we shouldnt expect a show to be logical?

Logical in what way? The show is only required to be logical within the context of the show, not the books. It tries, as hard as possible, to be consistent with the books but that isn't always possible.

When you start talking about troop totals, particularly given how vague GRRM tended to be about troop totals, you have clearly lost the plot.

Perhaps D&D are simply trying to create stakes that make Robb's his decision to parlay with Frey make sense? Because without the books constant reminders of how guests of a home are protected by the lord of the home, Robb's decision to trust Frey makes NO SENSE. And to convey that in the show would take far too much screen time and would come across as horribly obvious.