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(Spoiler) Poisoned wine & a theory


Lisbeth Sand

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Barring the Big Reveal in a later book, it can be said that Tyrion is innocent of Joffrey's poisoning. That doesn't stop Cersei from immediately pointing the finger at two people and being 100% convinced of their guilt.

Now, Cersei has to know that Tyrion and Sansa aren't the only two people who have a motive to kill her son. And Tyrion wasn't exactly the most vocal in wishing his nephew dead.

My immediate thought was that Cersei used the accusations to get rid of two troublesome characters now that they outlived their usefulness. But would that have meant:

Cersei poisoned Joff's wine herself, to secure her regency?

Later books give no indication, but we all know how honest she can be.

Tyrion is a convenient person to accuse, as he was the cupbearer for the wedding and therefore held the murder weapon more than anyone. But it was a crowded hall, anyone could've passed by and slipped in the poison. LF implicated another character later. As for Sansa? Guilty simply for being married to the accused killer, because clearly she conspired with him? Cersei's not that stupid, and she certainly didn't plot anything with her husband.

What say you?

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I think that this might have been one of the few times we see Cersei as human. Her love for her children has been reaffirmed a number of times throughout the books, it's obvious that they mean everything to her. I think her grief coupled with her hatred for Tyrion is what drove her to make that accusation, even if she played her own part in the plot.

After the fact, when she had calmed down slightly, I think that is when she starts to get a little sneaky to make sure there is no doubt that Tyrion was the one who poisoned Joffrey. To be honest I don't care who did it, they should be getting knighted not executed.

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While her relationship with Joffrey may had grown to be abrasive, she wouldn't kill her own son. She isn't that cold and calculating when it comes to her own children.

That is some behaviour I would expect of Tywin though.

Plus, killing Joffrey doesn't secure her regency because the Tyrell alliance would mean Marg has to marry Tommen, which still slowly shunts her to the sidelines.

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Plus, killing Joffrey doesn't secure her regency because the Tyrell alliance would mean Marg has to marry Tommen, which still slowly shunts her to the sidelines.

True, I meant it only as a temporary fix. Now Tommen is much younger and more inclined to play squire and read books, there is little keeping Cersei from ruling from the time being. Contrast with Joffrey's rule, when he took a greater interest in playing king and overruling her.

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Was it the wine or was it the Pigeon pie?

It had to be either Marg or her granny if it was in the wine but what if something else was happening too?

Tyrion's pie is sauced right before Joff eats it then comes the wine and choking. I've always wondered if maybe Tyrion was a target too..

Tywin Lannister just sits through the whole - my eldest grandson and King is choking to death - scene without moving, was he really that stone cold or was he not really surprised by what was happening, just to who?

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i think its pretty obvious the tyrells where behind this. Poison is a womens weapon afterall:P

There are plenty of women who want him dead. And I believe it was mentioned in GoT while Ned was investigating Arryn's murder that poison can also be a weapon of choice for eunuchs and dwarves(?).
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Cersei is bat shit crazy, but if there's one thing to be said for her it's that she loves her children completely. It's her most -- if not only -- redeeming feature.

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Cersei is bat shit crazy, but if there's one thing to be said for her it's that she loves her children completely. It's her most -- if not only -- redeeming feature.

She has two other children. And consider her deteriorating relationship with the rest of her family, She and Tywin butted heads while he was still around, Kevan turned against her, and things even went south with Jaime. I wouldn't put it past her to find Joffrey a similar threat and cut her losses.
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Was it the wine or was it the Pigeon pie?

My vote's still on the wine. Remember why it became dubbed the "Purple Wedding" in the first place: the wine is first described as red and then, after Joff keels over and Tyrion dumps the wine, it's described as purple. Also, Sansa's hairnet, given to her by the Tyrells, had purple stones and Lady Olenna "adjusts" it on Sansa's head just before everything goes down. Coincidence? I think not! ;)
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Wasn't it said that the queen of thorns poioned the wine?

Or was that just a lie of LF?

That's what I thought. Just because it comes from LF's mouth doesn't neccesarily mean it's not true. That lady has moves like a mob boss, and House Tyrell came out pretty well after Joffrey's death. Margery's toddler husband is a lot easier to manipulate, and the Tyrell's have their hand on the throne. I'm just saying...it makes sense.

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My vote's still on the wine. Remember why it became dubbed the "Purple Wedding" in the first place: the wine is first described as red and then, after Joff keels over and Tyrion dumps the wine, it's described as purple. Also, Sansa's hairnet, given to her by the Tyrells, had purple stones and Lady Olenna "adjusts" it on Sansa's head just before everything goes down. Coincidence? I think not! ;)

Exactly! I tend not to believe in coincidences.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Interesting.....except for the evidence that lady Olenna was quite heavily involved i'd be convinced. It has got a bit Agatha Christie hasn't it? Everybodys guilty, or looks that way. You know what, i think that the prospect of swopping an uncontrollable Joff for a much easier to manipulate Tommen and still have the control might just have been enough to convince Cersei to kill Joffrey herself. Especially when she can pin the blame on just about everybody and anybody else, and as you say, if she was really clever she could get rid of pesky brother Tyrion at the same time. Cersei's grip on reality has been getting a bit suspect recently.

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It seems pretty clear-cut that Olenna did the deed. Although, I do have a theory it was all Littlefinger's idea. Or, at least, that he played a big part in it. I've been noticing that he has his hands in every big event that occurs regarding politics. For example, he talked Joff into having the dwarf farce to enrage Tyrion and further implicate him. Petyr seems keen on framing Tyrion for everything.

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I think Olenna's talk with Sansa, where Sansa told her that Joff was a monster, was the event that caused the Tyrells to poison Joffrey. Obviously Tommen was viewed as a more pleasant and pliant match. Which means that they're either willing to wait things out until Tommen is of age, or they're also planning to get rid of Cersei. But if the Valonquar prophecy is correct, they may find that their plans in that regard are unnecessary (unless perhaps the Valonquar is Loras, which I doubt.)

It's highly likely that the Lannisters' fortunes will fall and the Tyrells' will rise very quickly in TWoW. At least that's the way it's shaping up. GRRM is going to have to create a new set of circumstances to keep that from happening. Perhaps they will have to concentrate more on fighting the Ironborn in The Reach?

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If you read the account of the Purple Wedding closely, it's hard to see how Tyrion is that credible a suspect. I think he had a pretty good defence by just pointing out that he was NOT expected to be Joff's cupbearer, nor to have had access to the wine. Is the prosecution's theory of the case that he was just carrying poison around with him on the off chance that he could manufacture an opportunity to use it?

The Tyrells don't seem to have felt at all bad that The Imp took the fall for their crime. Nor is there any overt indication that they regret Sansa being implicated, though really there's no reason to believe that they could have anticipated either Tyrion or Sansa presenting themselves as the fall guy. Maybe they feel a little bad about Sansa, since they were trying to marry her to Willas at one point.

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Just because it comes from LF's mouth doesn't neccesarily mean it's not true.

Perhaps, but I'd be hard pressed to find anything else LF said that turned out to be true. And Olenna would make a nice secondary scapegoat given Cersei's anti-Tyrell paranoia in the following book.

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