Jaquen Hagar

[Dorzalty]

wow, I didn't even realize that could have been Jaquen who killed Pate!! good thing i'm reading the books again, so i can pick up on these kinds of things.

The banker from Braavos's motives are unclear at this point; I think theres a good chance Jaquen would be in cahoots w the Iron Bank, especially seeing as both organizations are in Braavos as well.

I also believe Jaquen had something to do with the death of Balon Greyjoy, based on the woods witch's prophecy:

"I dreamt of a shadow, with a burning heart, murdering a golden stag." Clearly Renly's death

"I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on bridge that was swaying, perched on his shoulder was a drowned crow, w seaweed in its feather." (Balon's death, or murder in my opinion)- However Jaquen's reason is unclear to me, although he was probably just following orders, so his employer's motive is the real mystery. Well in addition, I think Euron "crow's eye" employed Jaquen to kill his father, based on the prophecy above, although I kinda doubt Euron is his full time employer, maybe working w someone else???

"I dream of a woman, that was a fish, dead." (Catelyn clearly).

also this woods witch is supposedly the same woman/dwarf who gave the prophecy of his progeny being "the prince that was promised" to Jaehaerys II. Food for thought

[StormRhage]

I've been wondering myself how/why Jaqen was in the Black Cells.

:agree: I have pondered that as well, there some fine conspiracy theories on here asking the same check them out.

[L33Doug]

How do you guys know that jaquen was at the beginning of feast for crows!? i must have missed some detail somewhere. please let me know

[Lummel]

You compare the description of Jaqen when he leaves Arya in ACOK with the description of the Alchemist in the prologue to AFFC.

"His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls...He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth" ACOK

"A young man's face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears" AFFC

[Sator Arepo]

I always had a very simple thought about Jaqen's being in the black cells. He happened to be captured, as difficult as it may be considering he was a Faceless Man. Once the guards in King's Landing knew what he was, he was sent to what was supposedly the safest place around. I don't think he ever wanted to go to the Wall. He tried to befriend Arya the whole time so she could free him.

Now, about stealing the book... interesting theory. Very interesting indeed.

[Steve Lomas Longstrider]

The Faceless men want to destroy dany and the dragons (great name for a band, btw) because they are descended from slaves who fled valaryia. dany and the dragons are virtually all that is left of old valaryia and they are the ancient foes of the bravosi.

also think the maesters had a hand in the demine of the dragons first time round, because their order thinks magic is a bad thing, that would be why they have the book that jaqen wants. the faceless men either dont care about the others or when they hatched their plans the threat from the others was not known, either way i think their plan is to wipe out any trace of old valryia.

also, re-watching the tv series having now read lots of the books, i noticed after eddard dies they have a shot of what i think are ravens flying overhead before cutting to the credits. given the importance of the ravens and the starks warging ability, i think this could be plot relevant.

[Sordelor]

The Faceless men want to destroy dany and the dragons (great name for a band, btw) because they are descended from slaves who fled valaryia. dany and the dragons are virtually all that is left of old valaryia and they are the ancient foes of the bravosi.

also think the maesters had a hand in the demine of the dragons first time round, because their order thinks magic is a bad thing, that would be why they have the book that jaqen wants. the faceless men either dont care about the others or when they hatched their plans the threat from the others was not known, either way i think their plan is to wipe out any trace of old valryia.

also, re-watching the tv series having now read lots of the books, i noticed after eddard dies they have a shot of what i think are ravens flying overhead before cutting to the credits. given the importance of the ravens and the starks warging ability, i think this could be plot relevant.

Show is no book canon tough.

[Steve Lomas Longstrider]

Says who?

I know certain more minor details are changed to make it transferrable to the screen but where is it written that something foreshadowing future events in the TV show won't happen in the books? After all Beinhoff and Weiss know more about future events that we do.

If GRRM has said it, fair enough, but I've not seen it stated anywhere.

[Sordelor]

Says who?

I know certain more minor details are changed to make it transferrable to the screen but where is it written that something foreshadowing future events in the TV show won't happen in the books? After all Beinhoff and Weiss know more about future events that we do.

If GRRM has said it, fair enough, but I've not seen it stated anywhere.

If you've read all the books, you can have a look at this thread for more information (it's a spoiler thread, so only read if you've finished all books):

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99318-discussion-as-to-why-the-hbo-series-is-so-frowned-upon-as-evidence/?hl=%2Bshow%2C+%2Bcanon%2C+%2Bbook#entry5112901

[quirpele]

To know who hired a FM to steal the book, we have to know who has motivation to want the dragons dead- namely, the maesters and the Others. Since the Others don't really seem the type to hire a FM, and the maesters surely wouldn't steal something from themselves (unless it was part of a reeeally complicated plot), neither of these two possibilities makes much sense.

On the other hand, what if someone quite rich and who wants dragons alive (Illyrio, possibly?) hired the FM to steal the book- not to gain instructions for killing dragons, but to make sure this information stayed out of the hands of the maesters.

[CJDTrismegistus]

To know who hired a FM to steal the book, we have to know who has motivation to want the dragons dead- namely, the maesters and the Others. Since the Others don't really seem the type to hire a FM, and the maesters surely wouldn't steal something from themselves (unless it was part of a reeeally complicated plot), neither of these two possibilities makes much sense.

On the other hand, what if someone quite rich and who wants dragons alive (Illyrio, possibly?) hired the FM to steal the book- not to gain instructions for killing dragons, but to make sure this information stayed out of the hands of the maesters.

One other option is the Faceless Men themselves. Braavos was set up by refugees fleeing Valyria and the Valyrian dragons. The Kindly Man tells Arya of the origins of the Faceless Men being in the mines of Valyria and hints that they may have been responsible for the Doom itself.

The re-emergence of dragons presents a problem for Braavos as they naturally fear the impact of dragons on the world - Tycho Nestoris states to Jon whilst at The Wall - "We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth if its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons."

I think that Jaqen had a couple of missions to attend to in Westeros on behalf of the FM. He originally went to assassinate Balon Greyjoy, being paid a dragons egg by Euron Greyjoy to do so, then he has made his way to Oldtown to obtain the "Blood and Fire/Death of Dragons" book. Due to the fact that the book is also referred to as "Blood and Fire" it seems to me that the FM want to try and hatch the dragon's egg they now have in their possession, using knowledge obtained from the book. This is the only way they can defend Braavos effectively against an attack from a dragons.

Why was he in the Black Cells though? Maybe he was being assisted by Varys and his alter-ego "Rugen the Undergaoler"?

[Livus]

Why was he in the Black Cells though? Maybe he was being assisted by Varys and his alter-ego "Rugen the Undergaoler"?

Maybe, but wouldn't Varys avoid the FM if possible? Or do I have that wrong?

[Daniel Snow]

Maybe, but wouldn't Varys avoid the FM if possible? Or do I have that wrong?

Varys knows that his secret plans are still secret he wouldn't be threatened by one as nobody was as of yet trying to kill him. also varys would have a lot of uses for a FM

[Jaqen Hghar]

I find the story vastly interesting and awe at how the plots intertwine. Some of the speculations in this thread though I have a hard time following since I don't see the evidence. For instance, it's pretty likely that Balon Greyjoy was killed by a Faceless Man, but it doesn't necessarily have to have been the Faceless Man we saw posing as the Lorathi criminal Jaqen H'ghar (don't forget - that was only an assumed identity!). That the same FM appears at the Citadel however seems very plausible to me (from the similar descriptions).

And even if there hasn't really been any "hard" evidence in the story yet I somehow do find it highly likely that the Faceless Men and the Iron Bank of Braavos are two faces of the same organisation. The bank must get its capital from somewhere - they seem able to supply any amount in credit for an acceptable customer - and they must also possess the means to pursue anyone hesitant to pay their debt infinitely. AND it must furthermore be known for everyone that you do NOT try to rip of the Iron Bank of Braavos. Of course they could simply hire the FM to hunt down their defaulting clients, but since the FM are known to charge "half, Eddie!" that wouldn't be a good deal for the bank in the long run. Hence, I think we'll see some really interesting plot lines emerge on this subject as the story goes on.

[Ashara's daughter]

My theory is that the FM are out to kill Dany's dragons. The religion started out among the slaves of Valyria, no doubt they were oppressed by the dragonlords, no doubt they hate dragons, it's even implied that they had a hand in the Doom. The dragons being so close to Braavos and Dany out freeing slaves concerns them, so they decided they have to get rid of them

[Daniel Snow]

Yeah I think your probably right. They are definately in cahoots with the IB. Oh an I was recollecting on why he was in the black cells an was wondering if maybe he was sent to investigate the state of kings landings economy? He was there just after roberts death. Maybe they needed to know what the knew king was like.

I have no doubts they keep tabs on their customers but im unsure wether or not that would require a FM. But who knows?

Im just writing this as it comes to me so sorry about being disorganised (never been my best trait)

Wasnt it varys who said that if it wasnt the boar that killed robert it would have been something else? An assasin sure fits that profile.

Dont think it was varys though as he could have released him from the cells. Which hes probably in from being someqhere he shouldnt be.

[murdoc2211]

But hold on, the FM were always wroth with the dragonlords of old valyria, but that was only because of the inhumane treatment of slaves (toiling in the mine, oppression, etc etc), but Dany is unlike any Dragonlord(lady). She is also the Mother of Slaves, causing constant ruckus in Slaver's Bay, so I really doubt if the FM are against her in principle. Also, if they are so damn pissed with slavers, then why not BOMB slaver's Bay? By the sound of Astapor and Mereen, they could ve been a tad better than Valyria but it still definitely wasnt a picnic for the slaves. I think FM against Dany is too far fetched. On the other hand, the IRON BANK and the FM seem like a profitable alliance for both parties. And spot on with Jaqen being the Alchemist, had to give it a read atleast 4 times before the realisation struck!.

[SerArthurHeath]

That's an interesting theory.

There's been a lot of speculation that the dragons are the key to defeating the Others. Perhaps someone hired Jaqen to steal the book so that they could find out how to kill Dany's dragons so that nothing would be able to stop the Others. Maybe this person wants to wipe out the people of Westeros.

Don't the Bravoosi generally hate dragons having been descended from slaves of the Freehold? Specifically that's where the FM originated...

[SerArthurHeath]

And aren't the original FM speculated to be involved in the Fall of Valyria?

[Nettles]

I don't think Jaqen was ever captured and imprisoned given his training and skills. I believe Jaqen was exactly where he was supposed to be.

It is possible Jaqen was hired to kill someone from the Watch and Ned is the most probable target. Littlefinger had enough resources being Master of Coin and he wanted Ned dead.

I still wonder who hired him to steal the dragon book though. Could be Euron, he has hired FM before and is hell bent on getting Dany's dragons. He's got the horn, why not the book as well?