Transgender and Gay Communities - Putting the T back in LGBTQ

[karaddin]

Just to add to the examples Brook is going to give, the issue isn't necessarily that of the portrayal being offensive. There are certainly plenty that are, and they tend to fall into either the predatory trans woman who does pass, or the pathetic trans woman who does not. However in others the portrayal itself isn't offensive, but it perpetuates harmful stereotypes/views of trans women, or are exploitative. The former is stuff like what I mentioned before, extensive focus on the trans woman "putting on her femininity" through make up, dresses etc, or the focus on before and after.

I haven't seen To Wong Foo so I don't know if it has either of these issues.

The other issue I forgot to mention earlier with portrayal is the exploitative ones, shit like Jerry Springer. And sexualising - one of the biggest influences on people these days is porn, and even just the names associated with it (tranny, shemale) are offensive.

Actually that's probably worth mentioning in here too, for those that don't know - tranny is a hate slur, if you wouldn't use n***** for a black man, or f***** for a gay man, don't use it for a trans woman. It's still used against trans women while they are being victims of hate crimes in countries including the US. If you are someone that would use those words, I've got no idea what you are doing in this thread.

[brook]

This will be a very bare bones summary, the section where she deals with this is pretty long and well worth reading (as is the rest of the book).

Julia contends that most media depictions of transexuals fall under one of two archetypes.

The Deceptive Transexual

* successfully able to 'pass' as women

* often portrayed as sexual predators fooling straight guys into falling for other "men"

* The Crying Game, Ace Ventura, talk shows like Jerry Springer, There's Something About Miriam, Myra Breckinridge

*

these characters are never intended to challenge our assumptions about gender itself. On the contrary, they are positioned as "fake" women, and their "secret" trans status is revealed in a dramatic moment of "truth." At this moment, the "deceiver"'s appearance (her femaleness) is reduced to mere illusion, and her secret (her maleness) becomes the real identity."

The Pathetic Transsexual

*

Despite her masculine mannerisms and five o'clock shadow, the "pathetic transsexual" will inevitably insist she is a woman trapped inside a man's body. The intense contradiction between the "pathetic" character's gender identity and her physical appearance is often played for laughs

* Unlike the "deceivers", "pathetic transexuals" do not threaten cultural ideas about gender and sexuality and so are generally portrayed as harmless.

* A Mighty Wind, The World According to Garp, The Adventures of Priscilla Queen of the Desert, The Adventures of Sebastian Cole, Ed Wood

* In many of these cases the audience is encouraged to respect the character as a person, but not as a woman. "While we are supposed to admire their courage - which presumably comes from the difficulty of living as a woman who do not appear very female - we are not meant to identify with them or to be sexually attracted to them"

* While their outward masculinity is always played up also is their lack of male genitalia. This contrasts with the "deceiver" whose hidden penis is 'generally found out by someone else in an embarrassing, often violent way.'

Feminization

In virtually all depictions of trans women, whether real or fictional, "deceptive" or "pathetic," the underlying assumption is that the trans woman wants to achieve a stereotypically feminine appearance and gender role. The possibility that trans women are even capable of making a distinction between identifying as female and wanting to cultivate a hyperfeminine image is never raised

* media obsession with showing trans women in the act of putting on makeup/getting dressed intended to emphasise that the trans womans femaleness is artificial.

* Transamerica a good example of this

* this trope often appears in nonfiction, including sympathetic portrayals

* use of before/after pictures to remind the audience that they are 'really a man'

There is much more and she goes on to discuss the media gap that Karaddin has already mentioned where trans men are completely ignored but that covers her main points

[King Tyrion I]

In many European countries, including the ones usually viewed as very progressive like Sweden, the law requires a hysterectomy for trans men and I think destruction of any stored sperm for trans women.

In Germany, you don't have to be sterile to change your name and gender - a trans woman fought for that and the Federal Court of Justice passed a verdict about it. It's up to the individual to make his/her choice about that.

Transmen on the other hand can be capable of having their HRT and remaining fertile, see all the stuff about the trans man who had kids in I think it's Texas? He's been in the news again recently for going through a divorce, and the judge denied the divorce on the grounds they shouldn't have been married in the first place (wtf kind of logic is that too?!)

You think of Thomas Beadie. He never had his interior organs removed and he put down HRT when he wanted to become pregnant as far as I know.

I can't speak to the modification of sex on the birth certificate, as I haven't had that done yet, but the original name is recorded at the bottom of the birth certificate to cover just this kind of eventuality. That's also necessary for proving the tie between the two names while you get the rest of your ID updated to the correct name however, so perhaps it's not done for sex.

Again, in Germany your old self ceases to exist once you've successfully changed your name and gender. Of course, some authorities may see your past still, but others don't, because normally there's a lock flag in your file.

[karaddin]

In Germany, you don't have to be sterile to change your name and gender - a trans woman fought for that and the Federal Court of Justice passed a verdict about it. It's up to the individual to make his/her choice about that.

You think of Thomas Beadie. He never had his interior organs removed and he put down HRT when he wanted to become pregnant as far as I know.

Thanks for the clarifications, if I had stopped and thought about it, I probably should have guessed that stopping HRT was necessary. Any idea if there is a length of time on HRT where even if you stop it doesn't matter? For a trans woman you are only (most likely) temporarily infertile, and if you stop HRT it is possible for fertility to return, however past a certain length of time (varies based upon the person) the testes have atrophied to the point that fertility won't return even if you stop. I think this can be anywhere from 6 months to 3 years, it's a pretty big variance.

[King Tyrion I]

Thanks for the clarifications, if I had stopped and thought about it, I probably should have guessed that stopping HRT was necessary. Any idea if there is a length of time on HRT where even if you stop it doesn't matter?

No, I don't know about that.

For a trans woman you are only (most likely) temporarily infertile, and if you stop HRT it is possible for fertility to return, however past a certain length of time (varies based upon the person) the testes have atrophied to the point that fertility won't return even if you stop. I think this can be anywhere from 6 months to 3 years, it's a pretty big variance.

Over here, most trans women I know take another medication alongside with their estrogen. It's main ingredient - cyproterone acetate .- is described here.

[karaddin]

Yeah that's the one I'm on. It's not legal for that use in the US though, so the most common one there is Spironolactane. From comparing results to women in the US on that (and from a bit in that wiki page), cyproterone acetate is significantly more effective at suppressing the testosterone. Perhaps not so much in the long term, but was very effective in a short time for me.

The anti-androgen is needed in trans women in addition to estrogen, while trans men only need testosterone, because testosterone is all RAWR ANGRY OVERPOWER, so just taking estrogen isn't really enough :P I'm perhaps bias against testosterone and not portraying it in the best light! But it is overpowering in comparison.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Those were the answers I was hoping for :P

Ok so my theory on a big chunk of the reason ties into what Brook was saying earlier about Trans and Gay communities natural allies, but goes a step further. I'll also say that these are conclusions I had largely come to on my own, but are articulately discussed and illustrated in a book I've plugged a few times on here - Whipping Girl by Julia Serano.

Basically at it's core it's sexism. When someone has the world view that maleness and masculinity are inherently superior to femaleness and femininity, whether it's conscious outright sexism or more commonly subconscious, the idea of someone voluntarily choosing to become lesser is extremely challenging to your world view. You can see this manifest in the different view of trans men to trans women. Trans men don't face near the open hatred and derision that trans women are subject to, the issue that trans men have in the media is what you said - you don't see them at all, they are invisible. This also leads to many people (myself included before I was better educated on the topic) assuming that trans men are much rarer than trans women, when they aren't. It's pretty much even.

There is media depiction of trans women on the other hand, and it's almost always negative (starting to change now). Even movies that are attempting to be sympathetic often end up perpetuating the negative images, which includes things like focusing on the before and after to draw attention to the trans woman not always being that way, focusing on the feminine acts of putting clothes and make up and portraying the characters as having little more depth than this - the femininity is artificial. We also seem to be one of the last bastions of groups it's OK to openly deride or mock, comes up a lot in comedy and its never nice.

If you are coming from the sexist viewpoint, a trans woman directly challenges that world view, a trans man actually reinforces it - of course a woman would want to be a man, would want to be masculine, as that's superior. They still make you a bit uncomfortable, so it's easier to just pretend they don't exist.

A similar kind of thing is going on with gender transgressions by gay people, just on a slightly smaller scale.

I'm sure I started this post with a coherent plan, and more to say, but I see to have lost both half those points and most of my coherence, so I'll it at that for now and hope it made sense.

"Those were the answers I was hoping for :P" Glad to be of service. Having a discussion across multiple time zones is a pain.

The disparity you point to, I think is fear driven. In almost all societies, the straight male is at the top of the food chain, and therefore, has the most to lose if his "straightness" comes into question. An example would be a straight male who is attracted to a woman he discovers to be transgendered. His first reaction, "if I am attracted to this person, what does that make me". His second reaction, "if others find out, I'll no longer be considered straight". Fear is the breeding ground of hatred.

[King Tyrion I]

Fear is the breeding ground of hatred.

Word.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Care to elucidate?

[King Tyrion I]

Care to elucidate?

I completely agree with you. That's why I typed "Word". No more words are necessary, because your sentence says it all.

:cheers:

[Robin Of House Hill]

Now I understand. I am a little dense this morning.

[mankytoes]

Word.

And people naturally fear the unknown, which takes us round to the importance of education.

[Robin Of House Hill]

People can be educated about the unknown. What is more difficult is to convince those who perceive they derive power and benefits by being part of "the top of the food chain", to give up that power and those benefits.

[mankytoes]

People can be educated about the unknown. What is more difficult is to convince those who perceive they derive power and benefits by being part of "the top of the food chain", to give up that power and those benefits.

Exactly, and they aren't at the moment. I've educated myself a bit on the subject, I'm sure I'd be embarrassed by my thoughts on it just a couple of years ago. It was never mentioned in school, most portrayals in media are seen as inaccurate, people simply don't understand what being trans is.

I don't really think that's true when it's such a small minority. People are barely aware of trans issues, they don't see them as a threat.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Since I am generally known, in these parts, for avoiding groups I perceive as a potential threat, it may be puzzling why I do not perceive gays, lesbians and transgendered in the same way. The reason is they pose no threat to me. What threat could they possibly pose? Are they going to wave a magic wand and turn me into Angelina Jolie? Heck, go for it. That would make me enormously more popular and wealthy than I am now! :D If people weren't so worried what others would think of them, these problems wouldn't exist.

[King Tyrion I]

Exactly, and they aren't at the moment. I've educated myself a bit on the subject, I'm sure I'd be embarrassed by my thoughts on it just a couple of years ago. It was never mentioned in school, most portrayals in media are seen as inaccurate, people simply don't understand what being trans is.

Nearly nobody is able to understand that - apart from trans persons themselves. I've worked with some on a honorary basis and I found out that their families either supported or turned them down. But no family member - and even those calling themselves "educated" - could ever truly understand what it means to be trans. To grow up in the wrong body.

I don't really think that's true when it's such a small minority. People are barely aware of trans issues, they don't see them as a threat.

Well, in a way their own gender is questioned. And the things that go with it. Male or female genitalia. I heard a good speech about trans - this was when I worked with the group - from a psychiatrist. He said that he was in the fear of being castrated as well, because of bottom surgery for trans women. Most fathers have problems seeing their "son" turn out to be female, and mothers have problems acknowledging they now have a son instead of a "daughter". That can lead to fears. One of the most frequently asked questions is this, "Am I guilty?" And it sometimes takes a therapy to make those people see that there is no guilt, neither on the trans person's, nor on the parents' side.

Over here, there are some persons going to TV, speaking about trans, to help in accepting trans as a fact. And to help parents.

[karaddin]

"Those were the answers I was hoping for :P" Glad to be of service. Having a discussion across multiple time zones is a pain.

The disparity you point to, I think is fear driven. In almost all societies, the straight male is at the top of the food chain, and therefore, has the most to lose if his "straightness" comes into question. An example would be a straight male who is attracted to a woman he discovers to be transgendered. His first reaction, "if I am attracted to this person, what does that make me". His second reaction, "if others find out, I'll no longer be considered straight". Fear is the breeding ground of hatred.

I almost included this in my post, as it's certainly part of it. However it think it's derivative from the sexism, if there is no superiority to being straight male, then theres nothing to fear in the questioning of that status. It's certainly set closer to some men's fear reaction however.

[Eyron]

Perhaps it does not bring much to the discussion but January 10th the practice of sterilization in this case was abandoned here in Sweden. There were several long studies done on commission of the government and smaller steps taken (like the demand for being divorced or unmarried and the juridical issues of which institution had the regulative competence) before this happened, but it was concluded that it was not in accordance with European Union law.

It was an Admistrative court ruling that does from now on not allow this to be practiced, but the (now obsolete) law still has to be changed. The ruling overrules the law though.

[karaddin]

There we go, I thought it was something like that with Sweden - that it had been stopped, but that the law hadn't actually been changed. Thanks Eyron!

[Eyron]

I am only happy to share :)

Always when steps like these are taken I get very emotional, it may seem like a small change but it is an enormous change for the individuals it has affected and will affect in the future. Life changing stuff. And hopefully it contributes to changes other places, and in other circumstances. I believe the governments have a huge role to play in statements like this, setting the standards for the media, masses and institutions to adapt to. In time it will change the general view I think, with future generations having less and less of the baggage our generations carry.