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Exar0s

[Book Spoilers] Why do the Starks have it so bad? [Future events and speculations]

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- "The Wolves will come again" Jojen Reed(based off a vision/dream he had)

- Martin's original plan for the final book to be named "A time of Wolves", is a bit telling to me.

In the end the Starks, will have either a satisfying or happy ending(my hope); but I doubt it will happen, before more deaths.

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The Starks are meant to be tragic figures...tragic not only because most of us sympathize with them and like/love them on some level, but tragic because their deaths symbolize a victory for deception and treachery over honesty and honor. Also, I think some of this is Martin's way of reminding the reader/viewer that this is NOT The Knights of the Round Table or The Lord of the Rings, in which you just know that somehow the heroes will triumph in the end and the wicked will be vanquished.

But some readers, such as myself, want at least some goodness, some of the good guys, to survive and triumph. If GRRM kills all the Starks except Rickon, and leaves Ramsey Bolton alive, he'll have totally disappointed me. I don't mind trials and tribulations, but if I want to read only about everything good and noble and fine being frustrated/destroyed; I can read RL news...

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In this episode we will see the negotiations for the RW. Soon Robb and Cat will join Ned in death. Our beloved Starks are being taken out. Theon sacked Winterfel which has since been burned to the ground, Sansa is about to be married to the Imp, Arya is about to be kidnapped by the hound and forced to see her family slaughtered, Bran and Rickon are presumed dead and Jon Snow is presumed a traitor to the Knights Watch.

I know the Stark's are supposedly the "good guys" but man do they have it rough. Why does he force us to love the Stark's only to make us read/watch them suffer since Bran was thrown from the wall in the first season. I know the Lannisters will get theirs in time but reading and watching the Stark's stories makes me sad and angry. Why do the good guy's always suffer the most?

I'm just curious if anyone thinks we will ever see the Stark's truly get revenge for the crimes done against them? Will we ever see Arya, Sansa, Bran, Rickon and Jon together again? Will the Stark's have a happy ending once this story is complete? Will Benjen ever show back up? Will Jon end up being the saving grace for the family, even after turning down the rights to have the Stark name? I'm so lost seeing how there can be a happy ending for the Stark's.

I know this is way to early for this conversation but the show won't catch up for another 4-5 years . . . .

Because....Winter is Coming.

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Stark/York

Lannister/Lancaster

In The Wars of The Roses, Lancaster won.

Hopefully GRRM has a different outcome in mind for his books.

Whoa this is cool. Never put that together before.

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But some readers, such as myself, want at least some goodness, some of the good guys, to survive and triumph. If GRRM kills all the Starks except Rickon, and leaves Ramsey Bolton alive, he'll have totally disappointed me. I don't mind trials and tribulations, but if I want to read only about everything good and noble and fine being frustrated/destroyed; I can read RL news...

I agree, I am all for realism, but I don't want to have ultimately read thousands of pages for the bottom line message to turn out to be that good guys finish last, that evil triumphs over good, that being honorable is for chumps and the way to win in life is to be the most ruthless asshole left standing, so some kind of Stark resurgence kind of needs to happen to prevent that from being the theme of the series.

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Guest

The running gag throughout the fandom is that this book series and tv show should be called "Everyone you like dies". I think that pretty much sums it up.

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The Starks are meant to be tragic figures...tragic not only because most of us sympathize with them and like/love them on some level, but tragic because their deaths symbolize a victory for deception and treachery over honesty and honor. Also, I think some of this is Martin's way of reminding the reader/viewer that this is NOT The Knights of the Round Table or The Lord of the Rings, in which you just know that somehow the heroes will triumph in the end and the wicked will be vanquished.

VERY well said ser

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I agree, I am all for realism, but I don't want to have ultimately read thousands of pages for the bottom line message to turn out to be that good guys finish last, that evil triumphs over good, that being honorable is for chumps and the way to win in life is to be the most ruthless asshole left standing, so some kind of Stark resurgence kind of needs to happen to prevent that from being the theme of the series.

I hope in the end we will have some kind of glimpse into the future. I want there to be stories and songs about the Stark children and what happened to them and what they over came. I now its a little silly and cliché but I would be so greatly happy if that were some how a possible ending

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In Winter, the pack must stay together to survive.

The story starts at the end of a very long summer. The pack splits up and some die, others only live because they run from who they are.

Now that Winter is Coming - I don't think that will be an option for the Starks any longer. I think they'll all be pulled back to Winterfell. It's where the story started and I think where it will end.

I think we may have to suffer through atleast one more Stark death. I don't think poor little Rickon has survived his ordeal after leaving Winterfell.

I think Davos will find Osha with a fierce black direwolf that answers to the name of Rickon now. I also think he'll end up in the Vale with Sansa. That's my idea of a bittersweet.

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In Winter, the pack must stay together to survive.

The story starts at the end of a very long summer. The pack splits up and some die, others only live because they run from who they are.

Now that Winter is Coming - I don't think that will be an option for the Starks any longer. I think they'll all be pulled back to Winterfell. It's where the story started and I think where it will end.

I think we may have to suffer through atleast one more Stark death. I don't think poor little Rickon has survived his ordeal after leaving Winterfell.

I think Davos will find Osha with a fierce black direwolf that answers to the name of Rickon now. I also think he'll end up in the Vale with Sansa. That's my idea of a bittersweet.

No, I think Rickon for sure will survive because without him, the Stark line, for all intents and purposes will end, they need a male heir to carry on the Stark name and Bran is paralized and turning into a weirwood tree. Unless Jon Snow/Targaryen/Stark decides to become a "Stark" without Rickon its all over for them when this generation dies, so he exists for the sole plot purpose of being the future heir. My bet is that Arya is the one who dies.

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It appears to be to be heading toward united Targaryen strength, w/ dragons, in the North, vs. the Walkers. The strength of House Stark had to fall, first, to set that up. Without Nedd heading south and all that then happened, a North united under Stark could hold the Wall, at least arguably if not plausibly, IMO. A depleted NW guarding a depleted and fractured North, with NO help from the Crown requires outside aid.

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What still baffles me is that the poor Starks never got revenge on Joffrey - the little brat who is arguably their biggest adversary. Before I got to the scene where he dies in aSoS I was convinced Arya, Sansa or Bran at least was getting to be the one that kills him, and likely in an extremely powerful, climatic scene.

Instead we get him gasping on the floor from poison ... yawn. Talk about a failed opportunity. GRRM, with all due respect, when you have a truly evil bad guy in a story the audience REALLY wants him to suffer a brutal, or at least shocking, end. And in this case it meant one of the Starks getting a feel good moment that I think it's safe to say most readers would've loved.

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I think the starks are quite fine, Jon if R+L is true, then it means he is a real Stark and if he died in DwD and was resurrected by Melisandre then his oath is end and he could take Winterfell.

If not, then you have Rickon or Arya to do so(Bran isnt likely to come south again, and Sansa, is too stupid D:), any of them would have the support of the whole north, least the Boltons and maybe the Karstarks..

Also the Manderlys are(it seems) still loyal, and they have quite a lot strength, and a secret fleet too.

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I think we are just starting to see that trampling on loyalty and honour can backfire. Look at the Freys. No one likes them, not even their allies. Wyman said there will be blood and vengeance. And Jojen said the wolves will come again, so we know it will happen.

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Its the beauty of George RR Martin ... first making you love the Starks then endure you with all the losses , esp the RW ( which bone chilling ) , then I guess Starks will get a happy ending sorts in GRRM's own way . The title of the last book also was supposed to ' A Time for Wolves ' so I guess that gives away a lot .

So just keep your patience the Starks will have their due.

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Instead we get him gasping on the floor from poison ... yawn. Talk about a failed opportunity. GRRM, with all due respect, when you have a truly evil bad guy in a story the audience REALLY wants him to suffer a brutal, or at least shocking, end. And in this case it meant one of the Starks getting a feel good moment that I think it's safe to say most readers would've loved.

I get where you're coming from (because who didn't want Sansa, Arya, or Robb to be the one to put that little shit down, at least at first) but that's probably my favorite part about the whole series, is that GRRM doesn't really go out of his way to pander to readers and give them what they want.

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In Winter, the pack must stay together to survive.

The story starts at the end of a very long summer. The pack splits up and some die, others only live because they run from who they are.

Now that Winter is Coming - I don't think that will be an option for the Starks any longer. I think they'll all be pulled back to Winterfell. It's where the story started and I think where it will end.

I think we may have to suffer through atleast one more Stark death. I don't think poor little Rickon has survived his ordeal after leaving Winterfell.

I think Davos will find Osha with a fierce black direwolf that answers to the name of Rickon now. I also think he'll end up in the Vale with Sansa. That's my idea of a bittersweet.

that's very good, I feel the same way but the theory that Rickon will be dead is interesting i'm not sure GRRM will go through with that, but I agree another Stark will die before all this is over, then maybe another one in the end if my theories about the ending hold true. hopefully the next Stark to die will be Sansa, I know it sounds mean and its not because I don't like her or anything like that, she just seems at this point to have the least to offer for the advancing war, but im happy for GRRM to prove me wrong, very happy

I think the starks are quite fine, Jon if R+L is true, then it means he is a real Stark and if he died in DwD and was resurrected by Melisandre then his oath is end and he could take Winterfell.

If not, then you have Rickon or Arya to do so(Bran isnt likely to come south again, and Sansa, is too stupid D:), any of them would have the support of the whole north, least the Boltons and maybe the Karstarks..

Also the Manderlys are(it seems) still loyal, and they have quite a lot strength, and a secret fleet too.

if R&L=J is true then Jon would be a Targ, but still a bastard (unless they secretly married) but it might not matter if Robbs will finds its way to someone able to carry out the actions in it. IF that should happen Jon would be legitimised and crown King of the North. if the R&L=J should come out that might not matter compared with a kings words. in my mind we WILL find out about Jons parentage but I think it will simply be us readers who know, I feel it will remain a secret to Westeros and Jon himself

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78 replies , supposedly a thread about the Starks, then someone sensibly points out that the Lannisters have had as bad off, then as a good thread does, digressions from the topic title.

I think that's the way threads should go!

In 78 replies not a single one about Targaryens!

If Aegon VI (and that gaggle of other names he has) turns out to be a fake, then Dany is really the only full blood Targaryen left!

(I mean Maester Aemon (Aemon Targaryen) has died.)

If Aegon is real that makes two.

It still drives me crazy that there seems to have been no other Targaryen high born or medium born or low born, left anywhere , well we don't know that for dead sure, but GRRM seems to have no explanation of that at all.

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