Bakker XIV: Star Trek into Darkness that Comes Before

[Happy Ent]

Spoilers for all 5 books of Bakker’s Second Apocalypse and other publications, including web-published short stories in Eärwa and teaser chapters from The Unholy Consult.

[Castel]

This has the same problem as Akka's own assessment of his abilities though, Eli may think he's weak (as far as gnostic schoolmen go) because he's a mere spy, it's self reinforcing. Another victim of the unreliable points of view!

But then it speaks to the power of the Gnosis if someone like Eli is not completely certain that he cannot beat a low-ranking, "weak" spy.

[red snow]

That title has scared me into imagining an episode of Trek where the Federation encounters the inchoroi. Maybe they do exist but they've never been allowed to show them in any of their shows or films due to the graphic nature of these encounters.

[karaddin]

But then it speaks to the power of the Gnosis if someone like Eli is not completely certain that he cannot beat a low-ranking, "weak" spy.

Oh I'm not in any way attempting to question that the gnosis shits all over the anagogis, I just think that theres a possibility Akka is a lot stronger than he and Eli think he is, and that he actually is a powerful mandati. Without having had that Eli fight, we don't know if it would be close, Eli was clearly way above the other SS schoolmen given his performance at Shimeh. For all we know Akka could have taken 2 Eli's comfortable, which still leaves Eli as 2-3x stronger than his fellow schoolmen.

But it's also entirely possible that he is weak and the gap between the gnosis and anagogis is that big.

[arya_underfoot]

I never got the impression that Achamian was a particularly powerful gnostician, until he killed Nil'giccas. I know that he got lucky in that fight, but still, he matched him for what seemed a long time.

Apart from The False Sun, where are the other spoiler chapters etc located?

[Madness]

For the moment:

The Four Revelations of Cinial'jin

Excerpt - The Unholy Consult, Chapter One

Post Laurier University reading (TUC, Ch. 3 Excerpt Summary)

The old Second Apocalypse is shut down (read-only now) and I'm in the process of porting all the old posts to the new forum, which can also be reached via my signature.

Cheers.

[sologdin]

good thread title. official UC spoiler:

Achamian: i shall leave you as you left me, as you left her. buried alive. buried alive.

Kellhus: AKKAAAAAAAAA!

[Sci-2]

That title has scared me into imagining an episode of Trek where the Federation encounters the inchoroi. Maybe they do exist but they've never been allowed to show them in any of their shows or films due to the graphic nature of these encounters.

Now that would be a test for the Prime Directive. Do you let the genocidal rapists go along their merry way?

On Akka vs Saik: This fight seemed to give Akka a bit of plot armor. I realize Conphas had a reduced force but I find it odd he didn't have some Imperial guard equipped with chorae?

[Maithanet]

On Akka vs Saik: This fight seemed to give Akka a bit of plot armor. I realize Conphas had a reduced force but I find it odd he didn't have some Imperial guard equipped with chorae?

Ehh, it doesn't bother me. Strange things happen in battles, and the idea that Conphas would "only" have a cadre of officers and 4 imperial Saik with him for protection doesn't seem overly unrealistic.

[Castel]

Now that would be a test for the Prime Directive. Do you let the genocidal rapists go along their merry way?

Not only do they have warp tech but this isn't just about their own internal development so...fuck the Inchies.

/completeTreknoob

[Sci-2]

Ehh, it doesn't bother me. Strange things happen in battles, and the idea that Conphas would "only" have a cadre of officers and 4 imperial Saik with him for protection doesn't seem overly unrealistic.

Yeah, I guess Conphas had already begun to spread out and deploy his forces by then. Otherwise Akka would be under far greater threat.

Does any sorcerer besides Kellhus prepare for Chorae? Did the Scarlet Spires do more than climb really high into the air at Shimeh?

[Castel]

Yeah, I guess Conphas had already begun to spread out and deploy his forces by then. Otherwise Akka would be under far greater threat.

Does any sorcerer besides Kellhus prepare for Chorae? Did the Scarlet Spires do more than climb really high into the air at Shimeh?

The Swayali wear huge billowing robes, iirc in the hope that they'll keep enough distance between the Chorae and their skin. And they climb really high.

[Maithanet]

The Swayali wear huge billowing robes, iirc in the hope that they'll keep enough distance between the Chorae and their skin. And they climb really high.

Yeah, that's right, although it seemed a little strange. Wouldn't armor be more effective? I understand it sucks to be weighted down and all, but it sucks getting shot with an arrow a lot more, and it's not like sorcerers need agility in order to fight.

[Castel]

Yeah, that's right, although it seemed a little strange. Wouldn't armor be more effective? I understand it sucks to be weighted down and all, but it sucks getting shot with an arrow a lot more, and it's not like sorcerers need agility in order to fight.

I suppose that arrows don't go through the Wards?IIRC when Achamian was casting the only thing that got through was a Chorae (but then, he wasn't flying as well) And armor is a lot closer to the skin so a strike is more likely to be debilitating, and if you fall into a pile of Sranc... Distance trumps strength I guess?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

We know the Saik can field at least two dozen sorcerers-of-rank, since that's what they had at Kiyuth while leaving some in Momemn (and possibly elsewhere). They probably have more than this, since they are considered a Major School, while the Mandate with 50-60 SORs is only considered Major due to the Gnosis. The Saik retain some status from their position, but I'd still estimate that they are comparable to the Mandate in terms of numbers.

That being said, Akka didn't fight the whole school.

Four Anagogic sorcerers would not be enough, not against the Gnosis. Conphas cursed himself for dividing the Imperial Saik between the Columns.

He looked back to the crest, where two of the four Saik Schoolman lay burning.

[....]

The only reason he'd survived this long was that he'd caught them so entirely unawares.

Conphas has four Columns with him, so likely 16-20 Saik (he initially had five Saik near him - he rode just in front of the Kidruhil and the Selial Column with Cememketri, who was killed before the other four arrived). His Chorae bowmen are unable to come up due to the confusion - the Kidruhil are routing, the Nasueret Column is withdrawing, and Saubon is riding along his flanks shouting for the Columnaries to fight for Kellhus.

The Spires at Shimeh marched in cadres with huge shields to defend against Chorae, but the ones in the sky had no protection. Seems like even just some armor would be a good investment...

[Maithanet]

I suppose that arrows don't go through the Wards?IIRC when Achamian was casting the only thing that got through was a Chorae (but then, he wasn't flying as well) And armor is a lot closer to the skin so a strike is more likely to be debilitating, and if you fall into a pile of Sranc... Distance trumps strength I guess?

Arrows that have a Chorae attached to them go through the wards, and really that's the only thing a sorcerer has to worry about. I just assumed that the billowy clothing of the Swayali was to protect against Chorae arrows, but I don't really see why that would work any better than armor would. A good suit of armor can protect the majority of your body from any arrows.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I think the billowing cloth is intended to foul arrows tipped with Chorae, much like Kell's whirling stones in Shimeh. They aren't meant to outright deflect them. Remember the Chorae has to touch skin to kill - though since we see Proyas kill a Cish by simply throwing his, it seems that a simple layer of cloth doesn't provide enough protection. Armor or billows presumably keep it far enough away from the body for safety.

Here's a question - do Chorae confer immunity to objects as well as people? I'm leaning towards yes since both the No-God and the Circumfix had Chorae set in them (strangely, multiple in each case, though one is sufficient for people of any size as far as we know). If so then the arrows or ballista bolts tipped with Chorae would make it through the Wards as well, providing an element of purely physical damage.

[Shryke]

Yeah, I don't get the sense armor will do much. As soon as the chorae gets close enough, it's over. A bounce off the armor 3 inches from your skin isn't gonna save you.

[Francis Buck]

But don't people get "grazed" by Chorae as well? I thought part of Akka's face was salted a bit during the fight in Cli-Aujas. Did it just get close to him?

[Maithanet]

But don't people get "grazed" by Chorae as well? I thought part of Akka's face was salted a bit during the fight in Cli-Aujas. Did it just get close to him?

Yes, it just passed close by. IIRC, how quickly you salt depends on how deep your mark is. At the beginning of TJE, Kellhus is salting from Sorweel's Chorae, and that is probably still a few feet away.