Bakker XIV: Star Trek into Darkness that Comes Before

[Sci-2]

Does anyone else have a bad feeling that we're not going to get TUC for a long time?

You have to give Bakker credit on how quickly the books have been released, but now I'm fearing a Martinesque delay. He's clearly got other priorities that may be quite understandable, but I am not even that hopeful for 2014 anymore.

The first draft of the book is already done. I think 2013 is unlikely but 2014 almost a certainty if for no other reason than the fact that this series cannot afford these long delays.

A strong conclusion to the major arcs begun in TDTCB is the best chance for Earwa.

But after that, I'm not too worried about the final duology, largely because I won't see the place/purpose of it until TUC is read.

[sologdin]

we can make predictions about the content of the third group of installments from the form of the first and second groups.

the first series relies on the sustained prolepsis of DA's parallel source text, the CFHW. we infer from the form of these flash-forwards that DA at least survives into the second installment, along with sufficient market for paperback books to warrant the investment involved in drafting a text that may subject its author to proscription.

the inference is vindicated by the content of the second installment.

the second installment nevertheless lacks sustained prolepsis. we may infer therefore at the very least that no sufficient market for paperbacks exists in the third series, and that the second series may end with ishmael's and i only am escaped alone to tell thee.

QED.

[Happy Ent]

Can anybody explain to me the purpose of the Mangaëcca’s heartless experimentation post exposure to the Inverse Flame. I’m thinking of this paragraph in False Sun:

They had conjectured, the Mangaecca. They had experimented. They had taken captives and inflicted every possible agony simultaneously all in the name of some flimsy purchase, some scant knowledge of Hell. Drawing toenails, while crushing genitals, while setting afire, while murdering children, raping wives, strangling mothers, blinding fathers… They had visited lunatic misery on innocents, and they had found themselves utterly impervious, immune to the least remorse. Some of them had even laughed.

It sounds as if they want to learn or understand something. But what? Whether they still feel remorse after seeing Hell? To what end? Why is that interesting?

Any kind of reasoned conjecture is welcome. “The Mangaëcca visit lunatic misery on the innocents because they think that if X then Y. They test this by Z.”

[Galactus]

I always assumed it was for comparative purposes. To see if Hell really was special or if it was something that could be replicated, understood (and maybe therefore endured)

[Sci-2]

I always assumed it was for comparative purposes. To see if Hell really was special or if it was something that could be replicated, understood (and maybe therefore endured)

Would they subject themselves to torture in that case? That passage has stuck out for me as well HE.

I can't decide if it's Bakker taking his views on human nature in a direction that deviates from my expectation ([his being] knowledge of damnation removes all moral restraint) or if this is a clue that the Inverse Fire is a goad more than a revelation.

To Bakker's credit, he's never given us reason to believe [completely in] anyone's PoV [any] character's gnosis though I worry this will make the conclusion problematic if he plans to definitively reveal who is saved and who is damned in TUC.

[Castel]

After Wheel of Time, ASoIaF, Gentlemen Bastards, and uncounted other series I've read with a sizable delay; sadly, I almost expect large gaps to be the norm.

Yeah, but I have some confidence that those other series will actually be completed.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Yeah, but I have some confidence that those other series will actually be completed.

Wheel of Time is already sorta finished, but why do you have confidence that Asoiaf or gentleman bastards will ever be completed as book series'?

[ToadKiller]

Not so sure about this. The only time we see him fight against a gnostician (as opposed to anagogists) is against Nil'Giccas, where I think it is fair to say he was getting his butt kicked until he got lucky. Agreed that it is unfair to compare a human to an Ishroi, but it's the only one we have. We just don't see much of the gnosis in action except when Achamanian is wielding it (Kelly and Serwe don't really count, being Dunyain).

I agree that Cleric had the clear upperhand in that battle, but Cleric was being purely offensive with his Cants. Akka on the other hand had the presence of mind to only recite defensive Ward Cants. One of which he noted as being difficult. It must count for something that he was able to hold off Cleric for as long as he did, without dying outright. Surely this is no small feat. Akka has gone up against Cish, numerous Scarlett Spires, two Ciphang some Saik, countless Scranc and Cleric. Whether it is because of the purity of his meaning or because of his wits I would say that he is a bit above average.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

About 60% through my reread of TJE...

- I may be in the minority, but I find Kelmomas extremely grating. I don't like his place in the trilogy as an agent of chaos or whatever and I find his sections frustrating to read.

- Kelmomas may be grating, but Esmi's sections are mostly just boring. She's sad, she hates her children, I get it, I don't need 19 chapters of it. Not to say that there isn't good stuff in there, or really interesting bits of information about everything that's happening, but it feels bloated. The tone is also so gloomy that it's a struggle to read it closely instead of sprinting towards the next chapter.

- The Ordeal chapters are awesome.

- The Cil-Aujas chapters are awesomer.

One thing I started thinking, probably this has been brought up before. If Bakker intended Cleric to be Nil'Giccas from the beginning, he did a HELL of a job misdirecting the informed reader towards Nin'janjin. Cleric talks about betrayal, he mocks the statue of Cu'jara Cinmoi and asks "Where is your judgment now?", etc.

It's either a brilliant laid false trail, or Bakker was frustrated that his readers figured it out so quickly (as I recall this was easily the most dominant theory prior to WLW's release), so he changed it at the last second.

[Spring Bass]

the second installment nevertheless lacks sustained prolepsis. we may infer therefore at the very least that no sufficient market for paperbacks exists in the third series, and that the second series may end with ishmael's and i only am escaped alone to tell thee.

It would be hilarious if it turned out that the Inchoroi were full of shit about being able to revive the No-God, and Kellhus launched this entire giant Ordeal just because he's gone insane and completely misread the situation. Oops.

Although yeah, I wouldn't put it past Bakker to also end the series with "Well, the No-God's back and we have no way to kill him, so we're all fucked and I'm writing this from a cave."

I'm just curious as to what's happening with Akka's dreams.

[ToadKiller]

Trisk, here is the passage where Akka describes going up against some Cish. Not only did he survive and get away, he killed them. "Only once had Achamian witnessed Cishaurim sorcery, what they called the Psûkhe—on a night long ago in distant Shimeh. With the Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, he’d destroyed his saffron-robed assailants, but as he sheltered behind his Wards, it had seemed as though he watched flashes of soundless lightning. No thunder. No Mark." Please excuse my formatting, I don't know if it is my laptop or what but when I hit enter the cursor doesn't drop down.

[wolverine]

Well I finally finished TWLW. Had some thoughts I wanted to share.

I feel like I am the only person who can't stand Akka. I have not liked him from the very beginning and I was really annoyed with the skin eaters having such a conveniently pathetic ending. To make matters worse he defeated Cleric. There was a little retribution since Ishual was rubble (I am pretty curious about where they are though). I agree with Mimara that Akka's mission seems rather pointless. At this piont, Kellhus seems to openly talk about what Akka is trying to prove.

I don't really get why there was the mystery of the Captain if he was going to just get shot by one of his own men.

I don't get why Serwe boning her brother is such an outrage when he is not biologically her brother at all. It seems like an odd pairing and it disappointed me because I preferred when they cared for and defended each other out of a sibling like loving. It seems nothing good can actually come from Kellhus.

Maithanet's death sucked and seemed kind deus ex to me. I wonder how much little Kel gets to run amok now. Almost all of my favorite scenes involve one of the Dunyain.

I know Sranc are disgusting Satan spawn, but if I was starving, I would have went for some Sranc steak much earlier in the Great Ordeal.

Bakker can really do some amazing things with his story telling, but I am ok waiting a little while before I read the next one.

[Sci-2]

eta: On switching NJ and NG - I doubt it. Bakker has committed to this story even in the face of lowered sales, I doubt he'd switch that reveal just because fans guessed the right answer. The man isn't petty.

I feel like I am the only person who can't stand Akka. I have not liked him from the very beginning and I was really annoyed with the skin eaters having such a conveniently pathetic ending.

I didn't really expect the Skin Eaters to function for much longer, so the collapse of their partnership made sense to me. They were becoming addicts who knew they were expendable to the Captain.

I don't really get why there was the mystery of the Captain if he was going to just get shot by one of his own men.

To an extent I agree the Captain was built up a bit, but existing at Cleric's side shows us he was a force of nature only because he compels his men to obey him. Unfortunately the very thing that allows them to survive, the Quirri, dulls their fear and increases their desire to have the Quirri for themselves. The Captain was always in danger once they veered from hunting Sranc, and I think Bakker did foreshadow this well.

I don't get why Serwe boning her brother is such an outrage when he is not biologically her brother at all. It seems like an odd pairing and it disappointed me because I preferred when they cared for and defended each other out of a sibling like loving. It seems nothing good can actually come from Kellhus.

Yeah, this all felt forced to me as well. I know at least one person has suggested that dismay over this scene stems from recognition of our own relationship to pornography, but if that was the intention it seems like another instance of Message over plot.

Maithanet's death sucked and seemed kind deus ex to me. I wonder how much little Kel gets to run amok now. Almost all of my favorite scenes involve one of the Dunyain.

Well, the WLW is a deux ex machina incarnated into flesh. But I agree this death was rather weak. Kel is sort of a ridiculous character right now, a cannibal anarchist with delusions of grandeur. I have trouble taking him seriously.

I know Sranc are disgusting Satan spawn, but if I was starving, I would have went for some Sranc steak much earlier in the Great Ordeal.

I think people were worried about what it might be like to eat such cursed meat or averse to eating beings that look almost human. This actually makes sense to me, as Sranc look like beautiful children. That's a hard bridge to cross, though I suspect some soldiers might have tried it on the sly.

[Castel]

I don't really get why there was the mystery of the Captain if he was going to just get shot by one of his own men.

I honestly don't get what the mystery is. Perhaps it's explained better further in the book and I'll get to it but I don't recall any real substance to said "mystery". The Captain is a broken veteran. Sarl is convinced that a part of him is from hell but Sarl is insane and I don't recall any confirmation. The revelation I remember involved his purpose, why he was waiting for Akka.

I don't get why Serwe boning her brother is such an outrage when he is not biologically her brother at all.

A big deal to whom? Sorweel, who is in love with Serwa? Or the insane medieval fanatics who know that he is her brother? I don't think that there was any disgust inherent in the text.

- I may be in the minority, but I find Kelmomas extremely grating. I don't like his place in the trilogy as an agent of chaos or whatever and I find his sections frustrating to read.

Kelmomas is an unwelcome reminder of Prince of Nothing for me. I despised The Warrior Prophet because of Kellhus's various manipulations. I hated that shit so much that I spoiled the series for myself, the ultimate sign of bridge-burning hatred. I just couldn't stand him or his gullible acolytes. It got better in TAS but now Kelmomas is doing the exact same thing to Esmenet and it's so frustrating, I just want to fucking shake her and point out how crazy it is. Honestly, Inrilatas is right, she shouldn't have the Empire.

Also, he's batshit insane and keeps fucking things up, including getting Maitha,one of the most sympathetic Dunyain, killed.

Wheel of Time is already sorta finished, but why do you have confidence that Asoiaf or gentleman bastards will ever be completed as book series'?

Because didn't Bakker come out and say that he'd need to do other work if the sales didn't rise? People keep telling me that the sales are good enough that the third trilogy is guaranteed but I'm skeptical.

Yeah, this all felt forced to me as well. I know at least one person has suggested that dismay over this scene stems from recognition of our own relationship to pornography, but if that was the intention it seems like another instance of Message over plot.

Just curious:how does our relationship to pornography make the scene worse? The voyeurism hits a little too close to home?

[Maithanet]

I'll admit I was also pretty disappointed with Maitha's death, as I am a fan of his (no, really). It was anticlimactic and it just left me kind of cold. I mostly assumed that the reason I didn't like it was becuase I liked Maitha's character in general, the mysteries behind him and his presence in the story, and now it seems like we'll never find any of that out. Overall, it leaves an increasingly unsympathetic Esmi and a rather one-note Kelmo as the only characters left in that part of the story, which is disappointing. I suppose the other emotionless daughter still there; I liked her.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I agree with all of that.

Another thing I've been thinking...

Inrilatus, Theliopa, Serwa, Kayûtas, and Kelmomas are all born with various gifts. Chief among these is the ability to see through faces. I can buy most of their gifts, like Kayûtas's ability with languages, as the result of the superior Dunyain intellect genes. But seeing through faces was a gift that not even Kellhus was born with. He studied extensively in Ishuäl to learn the muscles and everything, and there is no indication at all that he trained his children in any way (perhaps Theliopa and Kayûtas, but definitely not Kelmomas or Inrilatus). So I find it a bit frustrating.

[Castel]

I agree with all of that.

Another thing I've been thinking...

Inrilatus, Theliopa, Serwa, Kayûtas, and Kelmomas are all born with various gifts. Chief among these is the ability to see through faces. I can buy most of their gifts, like Kayûtas's ability with languages, as the result of the superior Dunyain intellect genes. But seeing through faces was a gift that not even Kellhus was born with. He studied extensively in Ishuäl to learn the muscles and everything, and there is no indication at all that he trained his children in any way (perhaps Theliopa and Kayûtas, but definitely not Kelmomas or Inrilatus). So I find it a bit frustrating.

Exactly! This his bugged me for a while. We had that scene in Ishual in PoN that showed that Kellhus learned it only to find that Inrilatas is reading people like books at four or whatever.

The best explanation I can think of is that the Dunyain bred for cognitive empathy and that the face reading training was about honing skills and explaining why it works. It's the difference between instinctively being good at cold reading and having someone break it down in a class so that you can reliably do it again and again while understanding all the principles. The Dunyain would probably want to avoid relying on instinct alone.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

That's true, and I can buy that to an extent, but then there are the skin-spies. Kellhus is able to find them because he is unable to identify the musculature on their faces. It was only after the fact that he was able to see the near-invisible creases on their faces. So unless he has specifically taught Theliopa about the muscles (and to be fair perhaps he has, since he left her in Momemn to assist Esmi for that exact reason), she shouldn't be able to spot them for that same reason.

[Armitage]

I agree with all of that.

Another thing I've been thinking...

Inrilatus, Theliopa, Serwa, Kayûtas, and Kelmomas are all born with various gifts. Chief among these is the ability to see through faces. I can buy most of their gifts, like Kayûtas's ability with languages, as the result of the superior Dunyain intellect genes. But seeing through faces was a gift that not even Kellhus was born with. He studied extensively in Ishuäl to learn the muscles and everything, and there is no indication at all that he trained his children in any way (perhaps Theliopa and Kayûtas, but definitely not Kelmomas or Inrilatus). So I find it a bit frustrating.

Momemn may actually a better place than Ishuäl for a Dûnyain to learn to see through faces.

In Ishuäl adults were trained to not let emotion show. And children met relatively few other people (adult monks, other children), all living in a controlled environment. Contrast that to the chaos of the court at Momemn and the sheer variety of people that Inri, Kel, etc. were exposed to from a young age.

Kellhus had to be trained to read faces because as a child he would so rarely have seen adults show emotion. But his children, though perhaps lacking some genetic gifts, from birth onwards lived in a rich emotional environment.

[Maithanet]

Kellhus had to be trained to read faces because as a child he would so rarely have seen adults show emotion. But his children, though perhaps lacking some genetic gifts, from birth onwards lived in a rich emotional environment.

I agree, but it's also a matter of degrees. All his children have certain gifts, but they are always inferior to Kellhus' own Dunyain skills. I just assumed that the face reading was part genetic and partially learned, and that is part of the reason why the children cannot be as good as a true Dunyain. Even in areas where their Dunyain skills are very strong, they are nonetheless untrained.