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Bakker XIV: Star Trek into Darkness that Comes Before


Happy Ent

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I think characters cracking jokes in Bakker's world would make it seem less believable in my opinion. The same for light-heartedness - you'd need some light-hearted characters for that to take place.

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But they do crack jokes. They just aren’t set up to make them funny. Instead, for example, we hear one of them through Esme’s ears (who rolls her eyes.)

If I were to boil down the thematic core of the Second Apocalypse to a single word, it would be domination. Everything that transpires, everything that is told, is about domination. Even jokes exist in the narrative only in order to be analysed as tools of domination. Here’s the exchange:

The two men halted at the edge of the canal, hiked their tunics, then fumbled with their loincloths. Soon two arcs were gurgling across the filmy surface.

“Hmm,” Xinemus said. “The water’s warm.” Even terrified, Esmenet rolled her eyes, smiled.

“And deep,” the Prince replied.

Xinemus cackled in a manner at once wicked and endearing. After securing himself, he slapped the other man on the back. “I’m going to use that,” he said merrily, “the next time I piss back here with Akka. If I know him, he’ll damn near fall in.”

“You’ll have a rope to throw him at least,” the taller man replied.

More laughter, at once hale and warm. A friendship, Esmenet realized, had just been sealed.

The exact same dialogue could appear in, say, an interchange between Tyrion and Garlan Martell (or Bronn). Martin would time it so as to make us chuckle. Bakker deliberately doesn’t, we are not included in the conversation to feel “hale and warm.” Instead, he shows us (here through the running commentary of Esme) that his joke, again, is just a method for Kellhus to dominate Xinemus, because that’s what Bakker is interested in.

Now, I happen to think that the books would not suffer a bit if Martin, not Bakker, had written the dialogue. After all, Ser Garlan also uses his banter to ensare Tyrion, but Martin is show-don’t-tell and doesn’t make the perspective explicit. We only realis much later (if at all) that Garlan poisoned Joffrey and used Tyrion as a scapegoat.

All I’m saying is that characters do crack jokes in Bakker’s world. (Mostly lame ones. Just as in real life.)

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I agree with HE... I would also disagree that Conphas and the Emperor are boring characters (perhaps only so in relation to the spectacular Kiyuth chapters and Kellhus in the prologue).

Although the dialogue isn't always great, I think the relationships were very believable. Akka and Zin had a genuine friendship that literally transcended Zin's religion. Akka's affection for Proyas is evident even as Akka lashes out against him for his piety. Etc.

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A different fandom would probably have complicated shipping terminology for these things, using abbreviations and portmanteaus. Shryke is a Cnayas-shipper.

I’m Aurang!TabbyCat and MimaMop.

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I find both the friendships and romances in Bakker’s book a lot more believable than most depictions in genre literature, tv, or film. It’s one of the reasons these books resonate with me so well.
Did you ever think that this speaks more to your specific relations and not people's relations as a whole? While you might be right that narratives are often too sanitized and scrubbed and too efficient, I think Bakker makes things too inefficient and soulless. The relationships don't ring true to me personally the way other relationships in my life or seeing relationships in other media do - and there are plenty of horrible examples of people saying the wrong thing at the wrong time or just being broken.
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There is a series of jokes (though we may only see a few?) where AK impersonates Cnaiur. The only one I can remember is about the Scylvendi riding their horses with one testicle to either side of the saddle, and they do not bounce.

A similar incident occurs when the Scalpers mock Pokwas in TJE for his endless sayings about Zeum, like "Zeum invented trees" or whatever.

Edit - Dunno who this "Al" impersonating Cnaiur is. Changed to AK.

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However, his US sales have been and remain disappointing. The ARC material I received for The Judging Eye emphasised his critical acclaim and so on, but it was clear that he's not been shifting large numbers for Overlook.

From an old Overlook catalog:

R. Scott Bakker’s previous books with Overlook have sold over 125,000 copies
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Is 125k a lot? Honestly aside from GRRM and RJ and a few others selling "millions" of copies I am not sure what a normal or good or bad number for an author is. That's only a bit more than 30k copies per book which doesn't sound good.

One thing hurting him is the ebook pricing. Freakin $12.99 per book except WLW which was $14.99. And no MMPB. You're basically cutting out a huge portion of your casual browsers at these price points, even assuming that said browser happens to be in a bookstore that stocks the first book.

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So...maybe I missed something, but did the White Luck Warrior actually do anything in the book named for him?

Well... he did kill Kellhus' brother. I'd say that's pretty significant. We also got a scene of him killing Kellhus at some indeterminate later date.

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Well... he did kill Kellhus' brother. I'd say that's pretty significant. We also got a scene of him killing Kellhus at some indeterminate later date.

Yeah, that was a bit confusing as well. I sort of got what was going - if it's at all possible to kill Maitha the WLW walks into that possibility but it came off as a bit of authorial fiat.

Part of thinks it was actually better that we didn't have the obligatory assassin sneaks in passage, which would be cliche. OTOH, a bit more clarity here would probably help explain what the WLW is.

It's actually one of my outstanding questions:

1) What is the WLW? I'm less worried about the metaphysics than the history. Why not send the WLW after Inri Sejenus or more importantly Fane?

2) Why does the Inverse Fire make you torture people? Fallen Sun may be one of the best pieces of writing Bakker has done, but this still frustrates me.

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Well... he did kill Kellhus' brother. I'd say that's pretty significant. We also got a scene of him killing Kellhus at some indeterminate later date.

Maybe I wasn't paying attention then. How did we know that was the WLW and not the assassin Esmi hired? Or are they the same?

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I believe that they were the same, but all of the WLW passages in Italics are difficult to follow. I think I need to grab the book and do a quick reread exclusively of those passages.

To me it was just the ridiculous luck involved to get right where he needed to be and know that Maith would be vulnerable while standing right next to it. Sure, in a crappy book an author could have that happen just on happenstance, but it makes far far more sense to assume it was the WLW.

I thought he was the assassin that Esmi hired, but regardless, I'm convinced it was the WLW that killed him.

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I believe that they were the same, but all of the WLW passages in Italics are difficult to follow. I think I need to grab the book and do a quick reread exclusively of those passages.

There is, initially a 0% probability the WLW can kill Maitha and survive to kill Kellhus. However, the WLW knows that Esmi will hire a assassin and replaces this assassin in the timeline.

There's a passage where the WLW and the assassin converse, where IIRC we learn Ajokli can see what the other gods cannot.

So Esmi would have hired the assassin who serves Ajokli, but instead hires the WLW who has taken that assassin's place to usurp the position in which an assassin kills Maitha and lives because he has the Empress's protection.

It's interesting because it shows Bakker beating himself - in TWP Kellhus comments on a skin spy replacing you with the words "no murder could be more complete" (quoting from memory)

Yet here, in WLW, we see a murder that is, in fact, more complete as the replace[ment] is not just on a physical level but a metaphysical one.

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