Bakker XIV: Star Trek into Darkness that Comes Before

[lokisnow]

riffing off HE's discussion of the circumfix, particularly the aside comment that Kellhus experiences a vision/conversation with the No-God prior to the miracle of the heart, I was thinking, Maybe Kellhus is a prophet, but if he is a Prophet, then it stands to reason that he would be a Prophet for the Being he has been in communication with--that being is the No-God. So this suggests that Kellhus is a Prophet of the No-God, not a prophet of Inrithism.

And it makes sense if you think about it, Kellhus--in the grand doomsaying tradition of prophets everywhere--prophesies that the No-God is returning, he prophesies that the No God will come again. He doesn't really prophesy about anything else, ergo, he is the No-God's Prophet.

[Francis Buck]

what an omniscient Kellhus would do.

WWKD

What Would Kellhus Do? My new bumper-sticker.

[Rhom]

I'm just totally caught up in the idea that the No God manifests as a Sharknado.

[Shryke]

riffing off HE's discussion of the circumfix, particularly the aside comment that Kellhus experiences a vision/conversation with the No-God prior to the miracle of the heart, I was thinking, Maybe Kellhus is a prophet, but if he is a Prophet, then it stands to reason that he would be a Prophet for the Being he has been in communication with--that being is the No-God. So this suggests that Kellhus is a Prophet of the No-God, not a prophet of Inrithism.

And it makes sense if you think about it, Kellhus--in the grand doomsaying tradition of prophets everywhere--prophesies that the No-God is returning, he prophesies that the No God will come again. He doesn't really prophesy about anything else, ergo, he is the No-God's Prophet.

That's a really awesome theory.

[Francis Buck]

It also works if the ultimate point of the series is that the No-God (and thus the Consult) is really the "good guy", in the sense that they're ending the eternal torture of souls, which exists for no particular reason, other than the "reasons" the Gods created, which are arbitrary. But that's a point of opinion. What's worse? The aliens that rape and kill in life? Or the gods that do something infinitely worse for all eternity? To me the whole point of the series is to subvert the typical idea of fantasy storylines, and also "good and evil". RSB points out why a supposedly just-God is nonsense, since justice (and morality) are not objective...or at least, they're not easily objective. It's largely based on arbitrary rules. So, the gods are the bad guys, and the almost comically evil bad guys are really the good guys, and the humans are caught in the middle. I mean it's like the point of the story is told right from the beginning. The No-God is the process which creates...no gods. It absorbs the souls (or eats them or whatever; it keeps souls from leaving the World) and thus negates the power of the gods. No power for the gods...No-God. It's almost binary. The sum of the gods of Inrithism, which is humanity attempting to apprehend the God (and in order to do so, it must break it down into components), is the same as humanity not comprehending the God at all.

[Castel]

It also works if the ultimate point of the series is that the No-God (and thus the Consult) is really the "good guy", in the sense that they're ending the eternal torture of souls,

By..killing everyone and leaving all of them to be tortured by the Gods. Those souls with the gods are stuck with them.

I suppose one can make the argument that it's better to end the race than to leave them at the mercy of the Gods but the Consult don't really care about damnation for people so much as their own skin. As far as we can tell their plan ends with Earwa permanently dead and them floating around on their own.

[Kalbear]

A while back I made some kind of point that Kellhus was of course clearly 'mad' because his worldview of societal norms was so completely at odds with what normal people thought that he was obviously insane. That insanity is not a mark of the person, but a mark of the people that observe that person (I think I said this about the time that whole watcher and watched door of Sauglish showed up in a preview).

[Castel]

Missed this:

WWKD

What Would Kellhus Do? My new bumper-sticker.

Bumper Sticker? This would be an awesome advice column.

[lokisnow]

RSB points out why a supposedly just-God is nonsense, since justice (and morality) are not objective...or at least, they're not easily objective. It's largely based on arbitrary rules.

Which brings us right back to Plato's Republic, which is significant in so many different angles for the series.

I suppose one can make the argument that it's better to end the race than to leave them at the mercy of the Gods but the Consult don't really care about damnation for people so much as their own skin. As far as we can tell their plan ends with Earwa permanently dead and them floating around on their own.

Which brings us right back to one of the only lengthy pieces of diagetic text repeated verbatim word for word, despite being different characters: Swazond. reread that description again. And then think on 'floating around on their own' with a scylvendi's final action, cutting a swazond on one's own throat, and what the cutting of that swazond will mean--metaphysically--in terms of the definition of swazond so strongly emphasized and repeated by the text. You could almost say, given the metaphysical weight that a swazond carries, that cutting a holy swazond on yourself to end your life would put you in something of a circle/circuit, soulwise, never being here nor there, nor on a heading for here nor there, but in a perfect conserving loop for eternity protected from damnation and blind to salvation.

Which might mean the Scylvendi have the right of it, and have even outsmarted the consult by figuring out a way not to close off the world, but to close the individual off from the world/outside (or closed the individual off from the circuit of watcher and watched by making those two roles collapse into one, ouroboros style).

[Sci-2]

@Wrath:

eta: bolded mention of arcane octagon

Sci - although Proyas does describe the brazier as the "Seeing-Flame" there's nothing explicit to say it's the product of Kellhus's power or an enchanted object. The hearth is described simply as small, iron, and octagonal. It is also interesting that Proyas thinks that he can see or sense scenes of doom in the shifting patterns of smoke and light on the tent walls in those scenes.

I thought this as well, then saw this passage (page 196 in the US hardcover):

Proyas smiled. For years he had wondered when Kellhus would call him out on this small secret. "I read a summary of its charges against you."

"Did you believe those charges?"

"Of course not!"

The Holy Aspect-Emperor frowned as if troubled by the vehemence of his denial. He lowered his gaze to the fire twirling in the arcane octagon of his hearth.

"But why would that be, when they are true?"

The small Seeing-Flame wheezed into the silence.

Now, this comes after Proyas has already dipped his face into the flames. So perhaps he thinks of it as arcane, though this seems doubtful as you'd think it would be other way - Proyas sees a miracle in what is really Kellhus's metagnostic sorcery.

@Tears:

If Kellhus is insane because he thinks he's a prophet and so acts like one, AND everyone treats him like one, why does that make him crazy?

I think the big question is what does it mean to be a prophet? Especially of a dreaming God like the one Earwa has. The way Lil' Moe describes it, Kellhus is a messiah because he has grasped the God. It's sort of like by attaining the Eastern idea of Enlightenment you become a messiah in the Judeo-Christian sense.

I think this plays into Kellhus's aforementioned mastery of space.

As I was reading about Kellhus grasping the Thousandfold Thought, seeing farther than his father, and this apparently leading to some decision on his part, it sorta reminded me of those who witness the Inverse Fire - sort of counterpoints to each other. I haven't thought this through yet. It'll probably come to nothing.

Hmmm, both the TTT and the Inverse Fire seem to conclude human doubt.

I'm rereading WLW currently and am struck by how Kellhus seems to want to reveal himself to Proyas. Like he's a magician showing the audience how the trick was done. Why would he do that?

I suspect it shows Kellhus has plans beyond Golgotterath, which is interesting seeing as he left his empire to rot.

One possibility is that Kellhus wants Proyas to understand that the God has all sorts of tools, and Kellhus is but one tool that is going to be sacrificed at Golgotterath. If Proyas thinks his Messiah his dead, the man will lose all hope.

But if he understands Kellhus played his role and now Proyas must play his part, it allows the man to go on. This might be why Kellhus wants the Nonmen. They may not be numerous enough to make a difference in the war, but they might be able to master the Metagnosis and bring a select few back to civilization to warn of the Whirlwind's coming.

[Tears of Lys]

I suspect it shows Kellhus has plans beyond Golgotterath, which is interesting seeing as he left his empire to rot.

One possibility is that Kellhus wants Proyas to understand that the God has all sorts of tools, and Kellhus is but one tool that is going to be sacrificed at Golgotterath. If Proyas thinks his Messiah his dead, the man will lose all hope.

But if he understands Kellhus played his role and now Proyas must play his part, it allows the man to go on. This might be why Kellhus wants the Nonmen. They may not be numerous enough to make a difference in the war, but they might be able to master the Metagnosis and bring a select few back to civilization to warn of the Whirlwind's coming.

That was my thought too.

[Guest]

Heh, what if Kellhus has some plan to somehow use the mechanism of the No-God to shut out the Gods but not destroy humanity in the process? That would be the ultimate slap in the face to Heavenly authority. Gain the world and keep our souls.

[Sci-2]

@HE:

Regarding deterministic vs randomized algorithms, IIRC the primary advantage of randomized algorithms is time. Do you think Kellhus's probability trance gives him any advantage here in that regard? Doesn't seem like it, as the WLW doesn't seem to calculate anything and instead has instantaneous knowledge.

@Tears:

Actually, it occurs to me that Kellhus may have a simpler goal in mind - save Proyas's soul. Now he can't reveal himself as a complete fraud on the march to Golgotterath, but Proyas himself has noted that the final battle comes down to the Schools*.

Perhaps, after 20 years among the world born, Khellus doesn't want his friend to suffer for eternity. Yes he's damned hundreds of thousands of souls, but think Silence of the Lambs: "If I could save just one..."

*And yet two schools slaughtered each other, and one of them was the Mandate. Perhaps the only useful schools will be the Swayali (gnosis), Nonmen (aporetics), and Scarlet Spires (daimos)?

@Trisk:

Heh, what if Kellhus has some plan to somehow use the mechanism of the No-God to shut out the Gods but not destroy humanity in the process? That would be the ultimate slap in the face to Heavenly authority. Gain the world and keep our souls.

So the world is overrun by ghosts? Though if Akka is right and souls are the Outside protruding in, shutting the world may affect our souls. Think of Plato's argument in, IIRC, Phaedrus. The soul is immortal because it is of the Platonic Ideal of Life, and so cannot be touched by Death.

What if the Outside holds this Platonic Ideal? If we shut it out, our souls may (likely IMO) dissolve upon our deaths. Or worse, the soul floats away on the other side of that locked door - which seems accurate IF Akka is right.

So the damned are still damned, but their empty shells think they've been saved....

[Tears of Lys]

@HE:

Regarding deterministic vs randomized algorithms, IIRC the primary advantage of randomized algorithms is time. Do you think Kellhus's probability trance gives him any advantage here in that regard? Doesn't seem like it, as the WLW doesn't seem to calculate anything and instead has instantaneous knowledge.

@Tears:

Actually, it occurs to me that Kellhus may have a simpler goal in mind - save Proyas's soul. Now he can't reveal himself as a complete fraud on the march to Golgotterath, but Proyas himself has noted that the final battle comes down to the Schools*.

Perhaps, after 20 years among the world born, Khellus doesn't want his friend to suffer for eternity. Yes he's damned hundreds of thousands of souls, but think Silence of the Lambs: "If I could save just one..."

*And yet two schools slaughtered each other, and one of them was the Mandate. Perhaps the only useful schools will be the Swayali (gnosis), Nonmen (aporetics), and Scarlet Spires (daimos)?

@Trisk:

So the world is overrun by ghosts? Though if Akka is right and souls are the Outside protruding in, shutting the world may affect our souls. Think of Plato's argument in, IIRC, Phaedrus. The soul is immortal because it is of the Platonic Ideal of Life, and so cannot be touched by Death.

What if the Outside holds this Platonic Ideal? If we shut it out, our souls may (likely IMO) dissolve upon our deaths. Or worse, the soul floats away on the other side of that locked door - which seems accurate IF Akka is right.

So the damned are still damned, but their empty shells think they've been saved....

Now you're just making my head explode. :drunk:

Probably a lot has been said on this topic and I've just missed it, but does Kellhus **know** that his daughter, son, and Sorweel are walking into a Consult trap over in Ishterebinth? I would have to think he must know, since he arranged the whole thing with the Scalpers and Akka meeting up, and he must know that Cleric was with them.

What theories have been propounded on Kellhus' motives **there**?

ETA: Unless he just thinks the Nonmen are so erratic anyway, that hey, it's worth a shot?

[Madness]

I'll bite that bullet - he figures Serwa's Womb is going to sway the Nonmen, whatever their allegiances may be. Certainly, this is compounded by the possibility of Esmenet's Last Scion bloodline as Celmomas' true descendant.

[Francis Buck]

By..killing everyone and leaving all of them to be tortured by the Gods. Those souls with the gods are stuck with them.

I suppose one can make the argument that it's better to end the race than to leave them at the mercy of the Gods but the Consult don't really care about damnation for people so much as their own skin. As far as we can tell their plan ends with Earwa permanently dead and them floating around on their own.

That's not my point though. The Consult's real goal isn't to kill everybody, it's to save their own skin, as you say. If, for example, Kellhus was able to figure out a way to completely close the Outside without the whole "reducing the population to 140,000 people or whatever the number is" thing, then it's feasible that they could come to an agreement of some kind. Yes, the Inchoroi are all about raping and killing and all, but there are only two Inchoroi left, and presumably they have no special reason (at least initially) for raping and killing humans specifically, as they apparently went around doing the same thing to other worlds, and are only on Earwa because of its significance in possibly being a way of averting damnation. On top of that, most of the Consult at this point is actually made up of Mangaecca and a few Nonmen, so it's not that outrageous to think that they would go for another option at ending damnation if one exists (unless they're just all crazily, needlessly evil, which seems a little unlikely, at least in the case of the human component of the Consult, which, again, would seem to be the majority -- they're evil in their methods, but they also give the appearance of being at least somewhat pragmatic in the achievement of their goals).

While I'm on the topic, what are the theories for why reducing the population of Earwa to that special number would actually work in sealing off the Outside?

[Guest]

While I'm on the topic, what are the theories for why reducing the population of Earwa to that special number would actually work in sealing off the Outside?

I still do not know what it portends in this story, but the 144,000 number has Biblical relevance. Even its own wiki entry!

[Sci-2]

Now you're just making my head explode. :drunk:

It's a bit scary to think Bakker might be planning for this. Imagine the world shutting, and only Mimara can see that everyone is now just a natural born skinspy, that their actual souls are on the othe rside [other side] of the gate being tormented...

Of course Mimara's soul would also be Outside by then, so the Judging Eye might not work anymore.

[buff daddy]

I have a love/hate relationship with this thread. I love all the discussion and theories in it, but I hate how badly it makes me fiend for the next book.

Anyway, please give us a little relief, Bakker, and hook Madness up with another sample chapter to put up on Second Apocalypse.

[Francis Buck]

It's a bit scary to think Bakker might be planning for this. Imagine the world shutting, and only Mimara can see that everyone is now just a natural born skinspy, that their actual souls are on the othe rside [other side] of the gate being tormented...

Of course Mimara's soul would also be Outside by then, so the Judging Eye might not work anymore.

That would be like, the mother of all downer endings. I can't even conceive of a more horrible, all encompassing downer ending. It would also be goddamn brilliant.

ETA:

Heh, what if Kellhus has some plan to somehow use the mechanism of the No-God to shut out the Gods but not destroy humanity in the process? That would be the ultimate slap in the face to Heavenly authority. Gain the world and keep our souls.

I missed this earlier, but I actually think something like this is going to happen, mixed together, in some way, with the other stuff I babbled about on this page. I hadn't really grasped how it might happen in my head, but you nailed it.