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Dove

[BOOK SPOILERS] “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

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Welp, thanks for summarizing ASOIAF for us, Ramsay.

Figured I'd make a Theon thread before the episode airs since this seems to be one of the most talked about storylines, probably because even us readers don't already have a clear idea of what exactly is going to happen.

Looks like we're due for a father-son Bolton creepstravaganza tomorrow night and our weekly dose of pathos with Theon Greyjoy.

Boy howdy does Iwan Rheon do some damn good crazy-eyes. (And I think one of my favorite things about this bit of casting is that Ramsay's been dubbed Barry the Bastard by so many people since his name hasn't been mentioned.)

I can only hope the bastard's identity will be revealed this episode, but I'm not sure it'll happen for the reasons others have mentioned already - namely, to make the Bolton family treachery more surprising. I'm not so sure that all this hush-hush regarding Ramsay's name or Theon's whereabouts is necessary, and it's apparently making this arc very aimless and hit-or-miss for a lot of people, but I'll reserve my complaints until we see how the reveal is handled.

Television's obviously a different medium and they have to handle their twists and foreshadowing differently - but do you think it would telegraph the RW too heavily if Ramsay is revealed and the question of Winterfell is answered a couple of episodes in advance? How do you feel about the way the storyline has been handled to this point?

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A quick addendum/reminder in the OP since I'm really tired of seeing posts deleted, mods having to threaten bans, good posters driven away, and now related threads closed (most recently the Roose thread in E05) because people can't seem to catch a hint even after an official word on the matter - per the rules, the fetishization or glorification of rape and/or an abusive relationship (or posting links to something that does these things/fanfiction in general), whether you're being ~funny~ or not, is not allowed on these boards.

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I think they'll reveal that the boy is in fact Bolton's bastard, to coincide with the greater significance of Roose Bolton (since this will be the first 'big scene' he's had). However, I think the reveal of who burned Winterfell will be saved for a later episode.

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I kind of feel like they should at least reveal in episode 6 that Ramsay is the one who burned down Winterfell ... like, even if they don't reveal his name / who he is / that he is related to Roose.

I dunno, I kind of wish that they would just explain who he is and have Roose Bolton act "surprised / pissed off" that his bastard is running amok or something. I think that would make it less confusing without necessarily implecating Roose.

I have a lot of non-book-readers in my family who ask "Am I supposed to know who is torturing Theon?" and I'm like "Um, I don't think so ... they are keeping it secret for some reason. Just keep watching, I guess!"

I mean, if the payout turns out to be really effective, then I'm 100% ok with that they are doing, but ... I dunno, I guess they are trying to emulate the secretiveness / confusion about Reek/Ramsay from ACOK.

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It's easy for me to say I've liked it so far since I've read the books and thus already know what's going on, and Theon is a favorite character, but I can imagine how confusing it would be for a casual viewer.

In the books the Boltons were telegraphed in advance even before Jaime's release, as early as ACoK or even AGoT if you pay heed to Robb's observations. From Roose in Harrenhal to the behavior of Ramsay in the North, we knew something was wrong far in advance, but the Red Wedding was still an incredibly visceral shock for most people. Part of what made it so shocking was that we saw the warning signs but ignored or overlooked them out of willful optimism. That kind of foreshadowing is very powerful if done well.

Considering we know this story is circular for now and ultimately doesn't really progress beyond Theon becoming Reek before probably mid to late season four or even season five they're going to have to come up with something interesting if with they want to feature Alfie Allen and Iwan Rheon in six or more episodes a year. Kyra and the escape attempt? Lady Hornwood? Something all new? It will make the constant misery and torment more watchable if there's some kind of story arc in sight, but it's going to be a careful balancing act for the writers to keep this part of Theon's story compelling and not simply repetitive.

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I have a lot of non-book-readers in my family who ask "Am I supposed to know who is torturing Theon?" and I'm like "Um, I don't think so ... they are keeping it secret for some reason. Just keep watching, I guess!"

I'm confused by how they've handled this: it's the same thing with the burning of Winterfell. I'm still not sure if that's even supposed to be a mystery in the show, or if we're supposed to assume Theon's men did it, or if we're not supposed to care, or what. It wouldn't have been that hard to have Bran ask "Who did this?" when they emerged from the crypts, or for Theon to ask "Who ARE you?" Usually with the TV show I at least know what they're trying to do, even if I don't think they really pull it off (Qhorin setting up Jon to infiltrate the Wildling camp), but with the bits around Ramsay, I'm not sure what they're attempting.

A Kyra escape attempt would likely seem too much repetition, but maybe they'll include that anyway.

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I think revealing Boy as Ramsay would give away RW. I hope they leave it till episode 10.

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Theon did ask 'where am i? who are you?' in his first scene this season. I think it's meant to be a mystery what's going on with Theon, along with what exactly happened at Winterfell.

Part of this seems to be because of the exclusion of the Ramsay/Reek storyline in Season 2. In Clash, Ramsay was established as a character with different aims from his father, and an outlaw in the North, so him burning down Winterfell did not immediatly put suspicion on Roose Bolton. Here though, Roose vouches for his Bastard and Ramsay is given Robb's blessing in taking back Winterfell, so if they revealed him burning Winterfell it would make Roose a suspect. I think they could have executed the sack of Winterfell better, but I see why they did it.

If you listen carefully you can already see some suspicion on Ramsay, since in episode 2 Roose reports that when Ramsay got to Winterfell the Ironborn were gone and had burned the place down, but we know from Season 2 that Ramsay's forces laid siege to Winterfell, and it was burnt after the Ironborn decided to betray Theon and go home.

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All the confusion and disorientation is good for establishing Ramsay's knack for mind games, if nothing else. It makes it seem like they're keeping the core of the character but taking him in a cleverer, more psychological direction - he shows the occasional bit of cunning in the books, mainly in his identity swap in the second book and his mind games, but then it's pretty much 100% All Dumb-Ass Short Sighted Brute All The Time.

Even if Rheon doesn't match the physical description of Ramsay in the books (I think the only person who could is a bulky, waay uglied up Michael Pitt or something similar, really) he's pretty well-equipped to play a manipulative sadist with a short fuse.

If you listen carefully you can already see some suspicion on Ramsay, since in episode 2 Roose reports that when Ramsay got to Winterfell the Ironborn were gone and had burned the place down, but we know from Season 2 that Ramsay's forces laid siege to Winterfell, and it was burnt after the Ironborn decided to betray Theon and go home.

Conflicting with that information, Luwin name-dropped secret tunnels that apparently lead out of Winterfell when he's talking to Theon about taking the black. Most of my friends just assumed that the Ironborn burned the castle and then fled through there. (of course, they don't seem to realize that Theon possibly didn't get the chance to tell his men about the tunnels before he got knocked out!)

I don't know, because of all the clues that directly contradict one another I just don't see how someone could be expected to figure it out without book knowledge at this point in time. The payoff should be pretty good, though, once everything's revealed.

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Welp, thanks for summarizing ASOIAF for us, Ramsay.

Haw! Basically. The series in a nutshell.

Looks like we're due for a father-son Bolton creepstravaganza tomorrow night and our weekly dose of pathos with Theon Greyjoy.

That's what I was thinking. Slowly but surely, Roose is creeping to the forefront, and it looks like (from the hints in the recap and preview for 3x06) that Ramsay/Theon is going to be a fairly prominent storyline.

Even if Rheon doesn't match the physical description of Ramsay in the books (I think the only person who could is a bulky, waay uglied up Michael Pitt or something similar, really) he's pretty well-equipped to play a manipulative sadist with a short fuse.

It's true that Iwan Rheon doesn't match the physical description of Ramsay (he's way too small and too good-looking), but there are a fair number of actors on this show who don't match the physical descriptions in the books who've proven themselves utterly perfect for the roles (in my opinion). You've got fair(ish)-haired, short Joe Dempsie playing the tall, black-haired, burly Gendry; Alfie Allen playing dark-haired, conventionally handsome Theon; lean, aristocratically handsome Iain Glen playing plain, powerfully built Jorah; fair-haired, gorgeous Sean Bean playing the dark-haired, plain Ned Stark; and of course Peter Dinklage playing Tyrion.

I'd probably add Michael McElhatton (Roose) to that list as well. He doesn't map on to my image of Book Roose, but I'm really enjoying him in the role.

Boy howdy does Iwan Rheon do some damn good crazy-eyes.

Indeed he does. When rumours were flying around about Iwan Rheon being cast for Ramsay, I was all "Ohhhhhh, that's perfect."

(And I think one of my favorite things about this bit of casting is that Ramsay's been dubbed Barry the Bastard by so many people since his name hasn't been mentioned.)

Hee. "Save me, Barry!"

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It's true that Iwan Rheon doesn't match the physical description of Ramsay (he's way too small and too good-looking), but there are a fair number of actors on this show who don't match the physical descriptions in the books who've proven themselves utterly perfect for the roles (in my opinion). You've got fair(ish)-haired, short Joe Dempsie playing the tall, black-haired, burly Gendry; Alfie Allen playing dark-haired, conventionally handsome Theon; lean, aristocratically handsome Iain Glen playing plain, powerfully built Jorah; fair-haired, gorgeous Sean Bean playing the dark-haired, plain Ned Stark; and of course Peter Dinklage playing Tyrion.

I'd probably add Michael McElhatton (Roose) to that list as well. He doesn't map on to my image of Book Roose, but I'm really enjoying him in the role.

What cracks me up about Rheon's appearance in the show is that they went the extra mile to give him black-black hair... and didn't really do that for most of the Baratheons. Hahaha. Either way acting chops are definitely 100% more important than perfectly matching the book description for sure, especially if it means possibly getting a more interesting character as a result.

Rheon's prettiness could go a long way in making Ramsay a more subtle and insidious kind of villain, and having it be even more disturbing when he goes all feral. I love the hell out of his weird-ass faces. Another cool thing is that he and McElhatton actually bear a lot of resemblance to each other.

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I like the storyline, and hope they drag it for at least the rest of the season. I'm patient with it because I know where it's heading, and this will establish Ramsay as a psychotic bad guy to replace Joffrey when he bites it.

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Haw! Basically. The series in a nutshell.

Hee. "Save me, Barry!"

I'm glad to see what the 'Save me, Barry!' thing is all about, finally! Kept seeing it on fanpics and had no clue what people were talking about!

And yes, I agree with the following post--Roose and Ramsay do resemble one another, could easily be father and son in rel life! Excellent casting, all around.

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Definitely think it would telegraph Bolton treachery to reveal him at this point b/c like someone metioned Roose got a letter from him already and I think the TV viewer would have trouble believing his son deliberately misled him. I think it would be better for it to go like the book abd Roose after the fact tell us that he did not approve of Ramsey action. Plus it gives Roose that great scene in ADWD where he sort of says that he almost had no choice but to betray Robb, b/c of things that happened out of his control. I loved that scene and think it would be a great scene on TV. I think one of the things the show has done better then the book, whether one likes the change or not, is to set up a motivation for a character to do what they do. Not to rehash a lot of debates but I think people have latched on to what are some really flimsy book motivations and sort of romanticizing them instead of saying yeah this didn't make sense. For me show actions make sense. and the ones that done i.e. Starks overall nietivity are pretty much the same b/t the two mediums.

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I'm glad to see what the 'Save me, Barry!' thing is all about, finally! Kept seeing it on fanpics and had no clue what people were talking about!

Haha, yeah, I don't browse fanart but the "Barry" thing has to be a reference to Iwan Rheon's character Simon, from Misfits. The loudmouth jackass of the group thought Simon's name was Barry for the longest time & demands to be saved once or twice. :lol:

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I think revealing Boy as Ramsay would give away RW. I hope they leave it till episode 10.

More than likely they'll tie them together.

While Roose is all "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," Ramsay will reveal he is Ramsay and detail the burning of Winterfell for shits and giggles

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I think the reveal will be in episode 10. I don't know if its true but I read ramsey is supposed to be in 3 more episodes which makes me think one of them won't be episode nine. I feel like they will Ramsy will reveal to theon that his father killed Robb and in revealing that reveal who he is.

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Maybe have Ramsay Snow introduce himself as Roose's bastard son, but make it clear that his father doesn't agree to everything he's doing, lest Roose Bolton's betrayal at the RW loose its shock value. Maybe have him tell the story of his companion Reek, and how is father forced him get rid of the dude, so he wants Theon become the new Reek.

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It could be revealed right before the Red Wedding occurs, if they keep the scene of Roose presenting Catelyn with Theons flayed skin. Very creepy but effective scene. Maybe it foreshadows his betrayal too much, though in the books it's known from ACOK on that Roose and Ramsay are nasty people, and the RW still shocks the hell out of most people.

Plus, Roose's loyalty to Robb will already be in doubt to new viewers when he releases Jaime this episode.

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Its not that hard whether your a reader of the books or not to know that it was indeed Ramsay/Boy who burned down Winterfell.

1. 500 men had Winterfell surrounded

2. Theon had less than ten men

3. There is no way Dagmer set the castle ablaze when he expected to walk out and take the "deal"

5. Roose gave Robb the news from Winterfell in episode two of this season. Robb then told Cat that after the Bastard of Bolton arrived the castle was already burned and ruin, and Rickon, Bran, and Theon were gone.

So all evidence points to the Boy. And I'm sure that when he does reveal himself he'll tell Theon that his Ironborn friends are dead.

And one last thing, I'm sure that when Roose arrives at the Twins to meet Robb he'll present him with the "skin"

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