[BOOK SPOILERS] “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

[Dove]

Based on what we saw this episode/what other folks have been saying, and the fact that Alfie Allen/Iwan Rheon have 6 episodes this season, here's my guess for how the rest of Theon's S3 arc and the reveal will play out:

(all aboard the "unfounded conjecture" train, toot toot! it's the Lysa Arryn of trains)

We know from the preview that next episode we'll get another Theon scene, hopefully with a hint or an oblique reference or something, Ramsay mentioning something about "my father" maybe, so it's not just another torture-of-the-week filler scene.

Then E09 Roose approaches Robb & Cat with news like "hey y'all, you'll be glad to know that my bastard's finally caught that jive-ass turncloak," and presents them with Theon's skin like in the book. This will obviously have major implications and raise questions in people's minds but they won't really get the chance to linger on their doubts since the episode is still ongoing. It's just another thing to add to the tense, uneasy feeling of the RW. Then BAM.

E10 - Theon's last scene, Ramsay introduces himself fully. Maybe we'll get the "my wife called me Snow before she ate her fingers, but I say Bolton," line. It introduces Ramsay, his name, his motivations (i.e. it amounts to highborn penis envy), hints at his past cruelties, and clearly demonstrates what Theon's got ahead of him.

[Sopranos With Swords]

Then no Theon until ep9 or 10 of Season 4, Maybe Ramsay arriving at Moat Cailin on horseback and asking for his Reek. Then the camera shows a limping grey haired man looking down making his way to Ramsay's side and getting on all fours to act as a step for Ramsay dismounting. Then when he stands up reveal that it's poor old Theon looking a little worse for wear.

This! Another season of constant torture for Theon would be unnecessary for the plot, viewers just need to know he's in for an awful time of it then see the aftermath. Plus that way it frees up room for everything else next season, before the story gets too crowded.

[ckongo]

If they do castrate Theon next episode, for the sake of my sanity, I'm hoping he doesn't have it flayed first. I think they're rushing his torture a little bit too fast. We just got flaying this week. It's best to take things slowly. After all, Theon isn't going anywhere.

If he does get castrated, hopefully it's the last we see of Theon's on-screen torture.

He wouldn't be Ramsay if he doesn't play the flaying game.

Erm, I don't want them to take this slow. Every week a new form of torture or new body part lost? Torture like this is weird for TV because it doesn't serve a justifiable purpose. They could have skipped all this and jumped to season 5 and opened a dark cell to find what was once Theon in a horrible state with missing fingers and all, letting our imagination do the rest (like the books did).

[bobbybuilderton]

He wouldn't be Ramsay if he doesn't play the flaying game.

Erm, I don't want them to take this slow. Every week a new form of torture or new body part lost? Torture like this is weird for TV because it doesn't serve a justifiable purpose. They could have skipped all this and jumped to season 5 and opened a dark cell to find what was once Theon in a horrible state with missing fingers and all, letting our imagination do the rest (like the books did).

I think they're going to do that when we are reintroduced to Theon. Let people be glad to be rid of his storyline (many are feeling its pretty useless at this point), and then when we get back to him he's this sniveling, broken animal. Pretty disturbing for the people who claim he deserves this. YES there is a good number of non readers who think that this is no more than he deserves. I've seen them. That, or they don't feel sorry for him.

[Nezzer]

Even though Iwan is acing the creepy sadist, I just don't see him as Ramsay. It's partially his appearance. He doesn't fit Ramsay's description. But it's also his dialogue (not the actor's fault). From what I know of Ramsay's dialogue in the books, he feels out of character. But this Ramsay's introduction is completely different so I don't know. It's just not sitting right.

I don't know what book you read because he is totally Ramsay IMHO. The only difference I can see in his personality is that book!Ramsay is easily angered, while show!Ramsay can control his anger. And why is the appearance so important? Would long hair and wormy lips make that much of a difference to you?

[Nezzer]

He wouldn't be Ramsay if he doesn't play the flaying game.

Erm, I don't want them to take this slow. Every week a new form of torture or new body part lost? Torture like this is weird for TV because it doesn't serve a justifiable purpose. They could have skipped all this and jumped to season 5 and opened a dark cell to find what was once Theon in a horrible state with missing fingers and all, letting our imagination do the rest (like the books did).

It would be interesting, but do you really think the casual viewer would even remember Theon by season 5 if he spent two seasons off screen? The show isn't just for us book readers, you know.

[ckongo]

I don't know what book you read because he is totally Ramsay IMHO. The only difference I can see in his personality is that book!Ramsay is easily angered, while show!Ramsay can control his anger. And why is the appearance so important? Would long hair and wormy lips make that much of a difference to you?

No fans should be calling Ramsay "hot." But you kind of explained how they are different. Show Ramsay is more in control of himself; book Ramsay is a loose canon, and probably a shitty archer.

[ckongo]

It would be interesting, but do you really think the casual viewer would even remember Theon by season 5 if he spent two seasons off screen? The show isn't just for us book readers, you know.

If book readers can go 13 years without Theon but show viewers cannot go two, then I don't know what to say about their IQ.

[Nezzer]

No fans should be calling Ramsay "hot." But you kind of explained how they are different. Show Ramsay is more in control of himself; book Ramsay is a loose canon, and probably a shitty archer.

Iwan Rheon is kinda handsome, but they "uglified" him a lot in the show. Most non-readers I've seen have been calling him an evil Samwise Gamgee :lol:

[KingWolf]

Iwan Rheon is kinda handsome, but they "uglified" him a lot in the show. Most non-readers I've seen have been calling him an evil Samwise Gamgee :lol:

your new avatar is awsome.Crazy Ramsay.

[Dove]

He wouldn't be Ramsay if he doesn't play the flaying game.

Erm, I don't want them to take this slow. Every week a new form of torture or new body part lost? Torture like this is weird for TV because it doesn't serve a justifiable purpose. They could have skipped all this and jumped to season 5 and opened a dark cell to find what was once Theon in a horrible state with missing fingers and all, letting our imagination do the rest (like the books did).

Technically speaking they couldn't have done this because of actors' contracts and the guaranteed retention of Alfie Allen.

Would it have been more effective? Possibly, but it would mean no flashbacks (it's so effective a chapter in the books because we have access to Theon's inner monologue and through his memories we can piece together the horror of his existence to that point) and they would have to go double-time on establishing Ramsay as a character and villain in a later season.

Strictly speaking, I'm just not sure if the sudden cut to Reeked Theon would work on TV. It worked in the books because the characters' inner monologues are so important in GRRM's writing.

[Dove]

No fans should be calling Ramsay "hot." But you kind of explained how they are different. Show Ramsay is more in control of himself; book Ramsay is a loose canon, and probably a shitty archer.

Ahahaha. Unfortunately Ramsay had people swoonin' even before the show, when going by his description he's a young, fleshy Tommy Wiseau with "wormy lips."

Him being attractive could mean interesting things for his character - he could be better at presenting a face to the world, controlling his temper, manipulating people, and for that reason when he snaps it'll be even scarier.

I enjoyed Ramsay as a villain in the books a lot, I don't think I've ever had a more visceral "aaa HATE" kind of reaction to any other fictional character, but any steps they take to make the TV version less shallow is probably an improvement.

[Nezzer]

If book readers can go 13 years without Theon but show viewers cannot go two, then I don't know what to say about their IQ.

Yeah, but it's not really about IQ. It's just that is A LOT easier to remember a character in the book because we constantly read their names. We spent quite some time inside Theon's mind in ACoK and thus he becomes unforgettable. I don't know, maybe it could work on TV, but it'd be a huge gamble. At any rate, I am enjoying seeing Theon and Ramsay this season a lot. It's been one of my favorite storylines this season.

[Nezzer]

your new avatar is awsome.Crazy Ramsay.

Thank you :cool4:

[Nezzer]

Ahahaha. Unfortunately Ramsay had people swoonin' even before the show, when going by his description he's a young, fleshy Tommy Wiseau with "wormy lips."

Him being attractive could mean interesting things for his character - he could be better at presenting a face to the world, controlling his temper, manipulating people, and for that reason when he snaps it'll be even scarier.

I enjoyed Ramsay as a villain in the books a lot, I don't think I've ever had a more visceral "aaa HATE" kind of reaction to any other fictional character, but any steps they take to make the TV version less shallow is probably an improvement.

Yeah, I also consider than an improvement. It makes him a lot more dangerous and a better villain. Like I've seen many non-readers say, he's looks like a smart version of Joffrey, and for that they consider him a lot more dangerous than Joffrey.

[Zorpack]

If the true non-book reader fans were really smart, they would have put together Theon's body position on the X and noticed the banner in the Roose Bolton scene of the flayed man....clear for everyone to see and compare.....and if they are anything like "Lost" viewers, they would have TOTALLY picked up on that and the mentioning of the Bastard of Bolton- case closed.

[AzorAhai42]

I can't believe all the people saying that they wish these scenes weren't in the show, or wishing that they were shorter or less. Two things. One, I think these scenes are really great, and a lot of other people do too. I think the only reason we never saw this in the books is because we were supposed to assume that maybe Theon was dead. And Two, they already have Alfie Allen cast. It wouldn't make any sense to tell him, "Look, we're not going to need you for like 3 or 4 years, but stick around because we will need you again." It makes way more sense for a tv show to just show the transition of his character. I think it's a really nice touch.

[ckongo]

Yeah, but it's not really about IQ. It's just that is A LOT easier to remember a character in the book because we constantly read their names. We spent quite some time inside Theon's mind in ACoK and thus he becomes unforgettable. I don't know, maybe it could work on TV, but it'd be a huge gamble. At any rate, I am enjoying seeing Theon and Ramsay this season a lot. It's been one of my favorite storylines this season.

Well, Theon did have a decent presence in season 1 (unlike the book). I'm pretty sure by the end of season 2 everyone hated him and would probably not forget him. This weekly torture scene just feels out of place to me. GRRM obviously felt the same which is one reason that he did not put Theon chapters in ASOS; that and the shock value of Theon -> Reek.

I think it goes without saying you enjoy it considering your avatar. :P

[ckongo]

I can't believe all the people saying that they wish these scenes weren't in the show, or wishing that they were shorter or less. Two things. One, I think these scenes are really great, and a lot of other people do too. I think the only reason we never saw this in the books is because we were supposed to assume that maybe Theon was dead. And Two, they already have Alfie Allen cast. It wouldn't make any sense to tell him, "Look, we're not going to need you for like 3 or 4 years, but stick around because we will need you again." It makes way more sense for a tv show to just show the transition of his character. I think it's a really nice touch.

No, anyone who was paying attention knew Theon was not dead. And even if you were right, so what? If GRRM did want us to think he was dead, shouldn't D+D do the same?

GRRM did not put Theon in ASOS for 2 obvious reasons.

1) Chapter after chapter of torture would be disturbing, and serve no purpose in progressing the story either than the obvious that Theon is suffering.

2) It makes Theon's transition to Reek more dramatic.

I cannot argue about the casting issue. If they cannot keep Allen because he's too important to leave out of the show for 2 seasons, then recast him. I'd rather have this than compromise the show the way they did by adding Tywin scenes because Dance was greedy. Reek is supposed to look very different anyway, although I admit it would make it more difficult to know that he was Theon if he was a different actor.

[Asshai by the Shadow]

I can't believe all the people saying that they wish these scenes weren't in the show, or wishing that they were shorter or less. Two things. One, I think these scenes are really great, and a lot of other people do too. I think the only reason we never saw this in the books is because we were supposed to assume that maybe Theon was dead. And Two, they already have Alfie Allen cast. It wouldn't make any sense to tell him, "Look, we're not going to need you for like 3 or 4 years, but stick around because we will need you again." It makes way more sense for a tv show to just show the transition of his character. I think it's a really nice touch.

Thank you! Completely agree :agree: