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Dove

[BOOK SPOILERS] “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

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Okay I have to say a few things...

1.People complaining about too many Theon scenes: Okay relax if you don't like them please look away. In my opinion they are very interesting, well done and very NECESSARY at establishing Ramsay since you know... he's kind of a really important character in the following seasons that has a huge impact on both Stannis and Jon Snow.

2. There has only been like 1 torture scene between the two, it wasn't even that bad and yes it is part of the story so deal with it.

3. For those who suggest that Theon should only re-appear at the end of season 4 or in season 5: That will definitely not happen. When have you EVER seen a GOT character disappear for a whole season then randomly come back in the last 2 episodes like 'oh hey remember me? yeah i'm reek now' .

Seriously I just really don't understand why so many people are complaining sooooo much! Have a little faith in D&D they are working with R.R. Martin and clearly know the best route to take this story. If you're so offended by it then don't watch it.

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If they cannot keep Allen because he's too important to leave out of the show for 2 seasons, then recast him. I'd rather have this than compromise the show the way they did by adding Tywin scenes because Dance was greedy.

1. Alfie allen is an AMAZING Theon, you would have to be a moron to get rid of him for someone else.

2. As many reviewers clearly stated, and many viewers agree with, the Tywin scenes have been some of the best in the series, both with and without Arya.

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In defense of the Theon/Ramsey scenes, I believe it's needed in the sense of showing Ramsey to be worse than Joffrey. In the show Joffrey is worse than he is in the books in the sense of physical violence (specifically in the last episode with Ros). We need to see how bad he is so when the PW happens the show can still have someone to focus on as a sadistic villain.

I'm hoping that the physical torture only goes on for a short while longer (another episode or two) because I think they need to get onto the psychological torture at some point. I want to see Theon as a person broken down and turned into Reek so we can have him building himself back up later on. Identity is a huge part to Theons arc and I hope they haven't dropped it for gore.

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Okay I have to say a few things...

1.People complaining about too many Theon scenes: Okay relax if you don't like them please look away. In my opinion they are very interesting, well done and very NECESSARY at establishing Ramsay since you know... he's kind of a really important character in the following seasons that has a huge impact on both Stannis and Jon Snow.

2. There has only been like 1 torture scene between the two, it wasn't even that bad and yes it is part of the story so deal with it.

3. For those who suggest that Theon should only re-appear at the end of season 4 or in season 5: That will definitely not happen. When have you EVER seen a GOT character disappear for a whole season then randomly come back in the last 2 episodes like 'oh hey remember me? yeah i'm reek now' .

Seriously I just really don't understand why so many people are complaining sooooo much! Have a little faith in D&D they are working with R.R. Martin and clearly know the best route to take this story. If you're so offended by it then don't watch it.

I really agree. I can understand book purism to a certain extent, but many just take it to the level of arrogance. "Actors should wait three years to come back in a show! Actors who want to have more than 5 min of screentime per season are greedy and stupid! Assimilate or be recasted!!!"

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I think it goes without saying you enjoy it considering your avatar. :P

Yeah, I'm really having a blast with his scenes :laugh:

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I've seen some folks mentioning the possibility of Ramsay hunting Bran and co. after his comment this episode, anyone else think that'll happen?

It could be a good way to build his menace outside of Theon torture scenes that seem to be wearing out their welcome with a lot of people, and give Bran/etc. something to do, maybe even a reason to split with Osha and Rickon in the first place besides the mounting tension.

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First off, I really don't like the scenes and I didn't enjoy reading just about anything Ramsay related. I find the whole thing excessive and disgusting.

However, I am a faithful book reader and show watcher. I'm not going anywhere. I may end up just skipping over the scenes in the future.

I am more concerned about how non-book readers see the Theon stuff within the context of the whole show and the direction it is going. I am a bit worried that after seeing this brutality followed up by the RW that some viewers will start to wonder what and why they are watching the show.

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I think Alfie and Iwan are amazing! However, I do think the torture will get very old if they don't do somehting different from the books. I will put it this way, I don't want 3 season of nothing but torture from Theon's arc. I enjoyed the sarcasm and mental torture more than the physical torture personally. I don't really enjoy watching someone getting flayed even though I know it's crucial to the story. I do feel like I have to say I think Iwan is an amazing Ramsey! So far i've enjoyed him more than book Ramsay. I know people complain that he doesn't look the part but lets face it tv is a visual medium and they seem really resistant to hire a lead actor that isn't attractive. He is a great actor and I think he will make the character work on a different level.

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I am a bit worried that after seeing this brutality followed up by the RW that some viewers will start to wonder what and why they are watching the show.

Not to worry. The ratings have climbed steadily and significantly every episode this season, more and more viewers tuning in every week. Obviously, the show's doing something right.

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Isn't Roose already revealed as a traitor by sending Jaime on to King's Landing rather than back North to Robb & company?

So why wait to tell us that Ramsay is Bolton's bastard? Because non-book readers would still be like, "Who are the Boltons?"

Honestly, I feel like that for non-book readers, House Bolton was barely registering before this episode. Roose has been too low-key up untill now (compare Roose as Robb's S2 advisor vs the Greatjon in S1), and even though they took pains to have Locke identified as part of House Bolton, it's having a hard time sticking. I think because they're supposed to be Robb's allies but don't track as good guys, it confuses people. Also, I've had people look at Roose and ask "What's Stannis doing there?" :dunce:

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Isn't Roose already revealed as a traitor by sending Jaime on to King's Landing rather than back North to Robb & company?

So why wait to tell us that Ramsay is Bolton's bastard? Because non-book readers would still be like, "Who are the Boltons?"

Honestly, I feel like that for non-book readers, House Bolton was barely registering before this episode. Roose has been too low-key up untill now (compare Roose as Robb's S2 advisor vs the Greatjon in S1), and even though they took pains to have Locke identified as part of House Bolton, it's having a hard time sticking. I think because they're supposed to be Robb's allies but don't track as good guys, it confuses people. Also, I've had people look at Roose and ask "What's Stannis doing there?" :dunce:

The fact that people think he's Stannis should reveal the answer to your first question. People have very poor attention spans and short memories. It seems obvious that Roose is betraying Stannis to us, but to many viewers it looks like he's just giving himself an out should Robb lose. You are giving the average tv-only viewer's intelligence too much credit. I've seen some people admit they'd started to forget that Joffrey is a horrible little shit, just because Margaery was shown reining him in a bit.

Short memories and failure to pay attention to details in the first place means that no, Roose is not revealed as a traitor. It's subtle, but the horn that woke Theon up is even a clue who Ramsay is and most have not noticed that unless they read it in a review.

ETA: I think the Boltons were supposed to not register before this episode. It ties into the climb metaphor. This power hungry house just shows up out of nowhere and steps onto the first rung.

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More on topic, I think the Ramsay/Theon scene in 306 was perfect and absolutely necessary. I agree that Theon will name him "the bastard" and escalate the pain- but I think we'll go black on Theon for awhile after that. Obviously, we'll see Ramsay hunting the Stark boys soon.

We might see Reek as soon as the last third of S4. I think Storm of Swords will only take us part-way (1/2? 2/3?) of the way through S4, and then we'll see books 4/5 starting. (remember ADWD starts simultaneously with AFFC.) I really think roughly a 6-7 episode Theon blackout would do it, with Reek emerging on the other side.

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The fact that people think he's Stannis should reveal the answer to your first question. People have very poor attention spans and short memories. It seems obvious that Roose is betraying Stannis to us, but to many viewers it looks like he's just giving himself an out should Robb lose. You are giving the average tv-only viewer's intelligence too much credit. I've seen some people admit they'd started to forget that Joffrey is a horrible little shit, just because Margaery was shown reining him in a bit.

Short memories and failure to pay attention to details in the first place means that no, Roose is not revealed as a traitor. It's subtle, but the horn that woke Theon up is even a clue who Ramsay is and most have not noticed that unless they read it in a review.

ETA: I think the Boltons were supposed to not register before this episode. It ties into the climb metaphor. This power hungry house just shows up out of nowhere and steps onto the first rung.

I agree. Nice tie-in with "The Climb". I guess my point is they have missed an opportunity with Roose, by not giving him screen time/ things to do. Contrast with what is for TV viewers a "new House" in S3, the Tyrells. 3 clear characterizations with lots of screen time.

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I think the scenes so far have been great, and I love Alfie as Theon more this season. I do think however that Reek will be more powerful given time to breathe off screen, as our own imagination of the horror would be worse than anything D&D can show. The torture scenes have been necessary, but I don't think stretching them out for another season would help the plot. I beleive Alfie has a good relationship with the show, plus he doesn't need to wait very long, just fill the last couple of episodes next season.

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Okay I have to say a few things...

1.People complaining about too many Theon scenes: Okay relax if you don't like them please look away. In my opinion they are very interesting, well done and very NECESSARY at establishing Ramsay since you know... he's kind of a really important character in the following seasons that has a huge impact on both Stannis and Jon Snow.

2. There has only been like 1 torture scene between the two, it wasn't even that bad and yes it is part of the story so deal with it.

3. For those who suggest that Theon should only re-appear at the end of season 4 or in season 5: That will definitely not happen. When have you EVER seen a GOT character disappear for a whole season then randomly come back in the last 2 episodes like 'oh hey remember me? yeah i'm reek now' .

Seriously I just really don't understand why so many people are complaining sooooo much! Have a little faith in D&D they are working with R.R. Martin and clearly know the best route to take this story. If you're so offended by it then don't watch it.

D+D do not know the best route to taken. GRRM does not have much to do with the show besides the 1 episode he writes before D+D tinker with it.

If you start saying "you don't like it, don't watch it" to any complaint on these boards, then the boards will have very little activity. All that will be left are bootlickers. And speaking of bootlicking...

1. Alfie allen is an AMAZING Theon, you would have to be a moron to get rid of him for someone else.

I'm sure there are many others with a similar appearance out there who can read the lines in a convincing manner. Don't put Allen on a pedestal here.

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I'm sure there are many others with a similar appearance out there who can read the lines in a convincing manner. Don't put Allen on a pedestal here.

Actually I think Alfie Allen SHOULD be put on a pedastal.

He is AMAZING as Theon and I couldnt honestly imagine any other actor doing the part Justice.

Replacing Alfie would be as bad as replacing Peter Dinklage (Tyrion)

I hated book Theon but Alfie has made me like and feel sorry for TV Theon

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Actually I think Alfie Allen SHOULD be put on a pedastal.

He is AMAZING as Theon and I couldnt honestly imagine any other actor doing the part Justice.

Replacing Alfie would be as bad as replacing Peter Dinklage (Tyrion)

I hated book Theon but Alfie has made me like and feel sorry for TV Theon

Sigh* If you want to worship people who am I to stop you.

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D+D do not know the best route to taken.

You mean the two that George entrusted with the show, the two to whom George revealed the entirety of his future plans, the two that are currently showrunners on one of (if not) the biggest, most successful and highest rated shows going around? Those two don't know the best route? I'm presuming you're basing your judgements here on "changes" that you disagree with?

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I agree with the people who think Theon should have significantly less screentime in Season 4- less than Jaime in S2. One because it will get dull quickly, and two because they need to have a 'timeskip' type thing for the Reek transformation to really work. I also think it will be easier to keep him in the viewers minds without actually showing him; assuming that they move up the Kingsmoot plotline to S4, he'll get plenty of verbal mentions without having to having him appear on screen much. What screentime he will have will be similar to Jaime's in S2- near the tail-end of the season, with material from his first ADWD chapter pulled forward (where he's already Reekified). This will have the added benefit of acting as a hook for the next season, which is generally what D&D have done regarding plotlines, rather than the cliffhangers that are in the books.

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