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Dove

[BOOK SPOILERS] “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

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Yeah I think the Ramsay reveal will happen early in ep 9, and while people are wondering 'wtf I thought the Boltons were Robb's men' you get slammed with the RW.

Hate the casting, crazy eyes or not. The eyes aren't supposed to be crazy, they're supposed to be dead. He's supposed to look like the child of Beauty & the Beast.

And what's with the sort of breaking down the 4th wall with the 'happy ending' speech? Who is he, Sam Gamgee?

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And what's with the sort of breaking down the 4th wall with the 'happy ending' speech? Who is he, Sam Gamgee?

Didn't you find it a nice nod to the nature of the series?

The fourth wall isn't sacred and it's already faced assaults from reports of Tyrion losing his nose, the Meerenese knot etc..

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I think revealing Boy as Ramsay would give away RW. I hope they leave it till episode 10.

Not necessarily. Just because Roose Bolton's son is a real bastard doesn't really mean he approves of what his son does (in fact the opposite can be said). I think they could reveal it now and play it off like his actions are completely his own and has nothing to do with with what Roose Bolton wants or is trying to achieve.

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Yeah but noone would believe that, so I don't think it would work. MAybe if they didn't have the scene where he gets a letter from his son they could do it. But that ship has sailed.

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I think they should reveal that he is the Bastard of Bolton ASAP. To be honest, it's not that big of a reveal. There has only been a couple of mentions to him, and not nearly enough that it would make the audience collectively shit themselves. The reveal of who burned Winterfell should come towards the end of the season, hopefully in the scene right before the Red Wedding.

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I think they should reveal that he is the Bastard of Bolton ASAP. To be honest, it's not that big of a reveal. There has only been a couple of mentions to him, and not nearly enough that it would make the audience collectively shit themselves. The reveal of who burned Winterfell should come towards the end of the season, hopefully in the scene right before the Red Wedding.

Totally agree. I feel the 'who's torturing Theon' build-up is being way over-sold by this point. Enough already. When its revealed that its Bolton's Bastard, I think most viewers will be like 'well, duh, no shit, Sherlock! What was the big secret all this time? The only Big Shocker Reveal would be if it wasn't Ramsay, since everybody pretty much guessed his identity long ago. LOL, its like you wheel in a gift-wrapped present for your kid--its shaped like a bicycle, has the outline of a bicycle, couldn't logically be anything but a bicycle, and then you spend weeks not letting the kid unwrap it, constantly banging on about 'you gotta guess! Guess what it is! Its a big surprise, guess!' And then at last comes the Big Reveal-- ta, daaa... its..... a bicycle!

Enough, show, name him, already. :rolleyes:

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The thing about the Bastard reveal is that it's a much bigger deal in ACOK because Ramsay's deeds had been built up over the course of the entire book - the women, Lady Hornwood, creepy 'ol Reek, etc. (but even then a lot of people still forgot or didn't know what happened at the end, haha) He also seemed like he could be working independently of his father. If you did take all that stuff in and remember it, though, it was a definite "oh shit" moment after all that build-up and it raised a lot of questions about motivations, both his and his father's.

In the show, we've only had Roose vaguely mention a bastard when he vouches for him and we know nothing about him/what kind of person he is so it seems like that's what's making people think the treachery will be too obvious if he's revealed. We only have Roose's word, and since Ramsay hasn't had any other build-up I think a lot will instantly assume he's working with Roose since he's a non-entity of a character at this point.

More than likely they'll tie them together.

While Roose is all "Jaime Lannister sends his regards," Ramsay will reveal he is Ramsay and detail the burning of Winterfell for shits and giggles

You mean, like, the scenes occurring simultaneously? That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I like it at all. The RW is such a Huge Deal, I don't really like the idea of interrupting it for such an underwhelming revelatory scene like that. I think if there's any cut-aways once all hell breaks loose at the Twins it's really going to reduce the strength of it.

"Guess what, I'm... the person who it's sorta obvious that I've been this whole time muaahahahaha" god ramsay chill it w/ the attention hogging

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In the show, we've only had Roose vaguely mention a bastard when he vouches for him and we know nothing about him/what kind of person he is so it seems like that's what's making people think the treachery will be too obvious if he's revealed. We only have Roose's word, and since Ramsay hasn't had any other build-up I think a lot will instantly assume he's working with Roose since he's a non-entity of a character at this point.

Um, yes, we've all read the books. A dozen times or so, some of us. We get it, Books=one thing, Show=a Different Thing. Got it.. My point was, though, that for many non-bookies, show-onlys, the show's prolonnnnnged teasing of ... gasp, who is torturing Theon???? Who could it be???? lost its lustre some while back. (The gift-wrapped package looks exactly like a bicycle, and guess what, yep, its a bicycle!) The show-runners have (very cleverly and well done in some instances) invented bits of dialogue and/or bits of scenes to guide viewers toward this or that interpretation, and they can do it here, as well. A few sentences from Roose that he's not sure what the hell his bastard's up to lately, or whatever, effectively distances him from Ramsay's goings-on with Theon. There are any number of ways to reveal what everybody already knows anyway (Ramsay is torturing Theon) without foreshadowing Roose's involvement with the RW.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, truly--I don't do that. But I'm seeing that even episode reviewers and the Unsullied (show-only) at TWoP have reached the 'now I'm just annoyed' level with the Big Secret of Who's Torturing Theon. Time to move along, show. Captain Obvious is obvious.

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^ How would you know though, you a book reader. You aren't really in the position to make that judgement. I don't mean to single you out but I think that is one of my pet peeves. Bookreaders taking the info they know and making statment that the show doesn't need to do "X" (i.e. show Joffrey beating whores) b/c we already know "Y" (he is a sadistic person). I beg to diffe, and thinkr that show watchers don't know these things, anywhere near to the extent book readers realize.

And using TWOP as a litmus test is not the way to go.

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My point was, though, that for many non-bookies, show-onlys, the show's prolonnnnnged teasing of ... gasp, who is torturing Theon???? Who could it be???? lost its lustre some while back. ... But I'm seeing that even episode reviewers and the Unsullied (show-only) at TWoP have reached the 'now I'm just annoyed' level with the Big Secret of Who's Torturing Theon.

But this is what's confusing me about what the show is trying to do: are they trying to present this as a mystery? My mother's watching the show pretty carefully, and I asked her who's torturing Theon, and her reaction was basically the one that appeared earlier in this thread: "Hm, I don't think I know. Are we supposed to know? Oh, is that another mystery? Or did I just miss it?" She assumes it's just a plot point she's vaguely forgotten, like she has no clue what "that slaver city the blonde princess burned down" is called. There is no mystery for her, and if the show is trying to convey a mystery, it's failed for a large number of viewers. (Ditto the burning of Winterfell.) To use your own bicycle metaphor: the reveal is going to be more like somebody wheeling out a bicycle, saying "Surprise! You get a bicycle! Did you guess the present was a bicycle? Did you understand my hints?", when it's not Christmas and it's not her birthday and the kid had no idea a present was even coming, so how on earth could she guess it was specifically a bike.

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^ How would you know though, you a book reader. You aren't really in the position to make that judgement. I don't mean to single you out but I think that is one of my pet peeves. Bookreaders taking the info they know and making statment that the show doesn't need to do "X" (i.e. show Joffrey beating whores) b/c we already know "Y" (he is a sadistic person). I beg to diffe, and thinkr that show watchers don't know these things, anywhere near to the extent book readers realize.

And using TWOP as a litmus test is not the way to go.

Suggest you take a walk over to WiC and read through the non-bookies reviewers reviews regarding the 'who is torturing Theon' issue. The way to go.

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Since Theon is appearing in 6 episodes and epidode 6 will be the 4th, here is my prediction: Boy and Theon are absent from episode 7, appear again in episode 8 when Boy finally reveals his identity at the end of the episode (by then it won't be an early giveaway but buildup to something big happening in episode 9), are absent in episode 9 and appear in episode 10 where I have ZERO clue as to what sense of closure or what kind of cliffhanger thy will give (referring to Ramsay and Theon).

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where I have ZERO clue as to what sense of closure or what kind of cliffhanger thy will give (referring to Ramsay and Theon).

This is another good point. Where do you guys think they're going with this arc in S4 with three episodes left? Theon breaking and becoming "Reek"? Something else?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, truly--I don't do that. But I'm seeing that even episode reviewers and the Unsullied (show-only) at TWoP have reached the 'now I'm just annoyed' level with the Big Secret of Who's Torturing Theon. Time to move along, show. Captain Obvious is obvious.

Not sure what you're arguing since that's what I'm saying though?? Without any buildup to his character besides Roose's mention, at this point it's either going to be underwhelming or a big red flag, or both, but I can't say which since it's hard to truly separate book/show knowledge.

And yeah, online Unsullied that talk about the show on websites like TWoP and WiC.net and stuff are a very vocal minority, and most of their communities are full of bookwalkers and shit anyway - the vast majority of casual viewers honestly seem to have no fucking clue, and like lostinasia mentioned, were confused about whether they should even have a clue or not.

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I've been watching reviews online and most tv viewers have no clue who 'Boy' is. One shouldn't conflate the careful analysis of viewers on twop with regular tv viewers. Almost everyone on twop expects Robb to die this season but for the majority of tv viewers it will be a big surprise.

As a book reader, I like how they've handled Theon's arc. The scene where he said that he lost his real father in KL was great, and Ramsay seems to be more interesting than his book counterpart. That said, bit worried they will retreat old ground in episode 6 or give the game away too early. It's a fine line to tread.

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Theon's monologue about Ned and how he'd make the wrong decisions was very touching, but it's kind of interesting timing. In the books it took Theon until the Prince of Winterfell chapter, I think, or maybe even later to come to a similar conclusion - you have to wonder if/why they're front-loading his character development like that and if it will have ramifications.

I'm probably just over-thinking it and they just did it as a way to build sympathy and pity before Theon's real hell starts. Just going by comments here, even a lot of book readers didn't give a shit about his torture until his "My my real father lost his head in King's Landing," line.

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I think revealing Boy as Ramsay would give away RW. I hope they leave it till episode 10.

Why? The people who haven't read the books, will think he's doing this to Theon as payback for Winterfell. Theon basically took control of Winterfell, he's not a good guy right now in the eyes of the fans.

Why would Ramsay torturing him, hint at the RW?

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Why? The people who haven't read the books, will think he's doing this to Theon as payback for Winterfell. Theon basically took control of Winterfell, he's not a good guy right now in the eyes of the fans.

Why would Ramsay torturing him, hint at the RW?

It would tell us that it was Ramsay that burned Winterfell, since we know from last season that Winterfell was whole when the Iron Islanders struck a deal to surrender Theon.

It would also mean that the letter sent to Robb was a lie, since Ramsay has had Theon all along.

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I'm probably just over-thinking it and they just did it as a way to build sympathy and pity before Theon's real hell starts. Just going by comments here, even a lot of book readers didn't give a shit about his torture until his "My my real father lost his head in King's Landing," line.

It irks me that people only start sympathizing with Theon when he says something nice about the Starks. Goddamn Stark-centric non-readers...(shakes fist and grumbles)

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I'm hoping they reveal that they are at the Dreadfort so we can see the Dreadfort on the map in the intro. That will make 15 places so far.

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I would love the hell out of seeing the Dreadfort on the map. I'm not sure what I want more: for it to be as transparently, cartoonishly evil-looking as a castle named THE DREADFORT should be or for it to be an unremarkable, even cheerful lookin' place.

It irks me that people only start sympathizing with Theon when he says something nice about the Starks. Goddamn Stark-centric non-readers...(shakes fist and grumbles)

Haha, right? Well, I guess D&D knows their audience, slipping that line in there. It's a pet peeve with me too, and it seems like it's not even just non-readers.

A man mutilated, broken, and tortured into insanity? NOPE SCUM DESERVED IT. But he said something nice about Ned first? :crying: :crying:

e: wait I'm not sure if either of them wrote that episode actually, don't remember who did. oh well, same sentiment

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