Most difficult Kingdoms to invade?

[Toos]

Balon almost conquered the North with his 1 region.

Balon took Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte and raid Stony Shore, plus Theon and Dagmer took Torhenn Square and Winterfell(both would be retake if Ramsay didn't betray Starks). If this is almost conquered North then Robb almost conquered West. Even his plan that WF would stand 1 year is odd because Riverrun could hold with supplies 2 years and Dreadfort hold 4 years until Starks won.

[Charerg]

Eh, I'd say that Balon's invasion of the North didn't quite achieve "almost conquering the place"....his initial plan involved taking 1 wooden castle (deepwood), 1 ruin (moat cailin), plus raiding the stony shore. Thanks to Theon and Ramsay, Winterfell was sacked and the Ironborn were able to take Torrhen's Square as well.

Ramsay killed the castellan of Winterfell, routed an army close to 2000 and slew the castellan of Torrhen's Square as well as Lord Cerwyn. Then he sacked Winterfell. Sure, he killed what....20 ironmen? But considering how completely Ramsay's war efforts crippled any organised northern resistance I'd say that he was the best friend of House Greyjoy.

Plus ofc the best part of the northern strength was indeed away. Even so, if Balon the Mad had sticked to his initial plan, how well do you think it would've worked out? Ser Rodrik would've been free to assemble an army and march against either Deepwood or Moat Cailin at will. Without Theon and Ramsay, Balon's invasion would've been a colossal failure....well it's a failure as it is but at least it was initially succesful.

Besides consider that the Greyjoys had 3 advantages on their side when they invaded that they didn't themselves suffer from when the Iron Throne "invaded and crushed" the Iron Islands:

1) The majority of the northern lords were away with their best strength

2) They had complete surprise

3) Boltons betrayed the Starks with devastating consequences

If you look at the relative ease with which Robert was able to subdue the Iron Islands, I wouldn't say they're nearly as hard to conquer as the larger kingdoms. First off, they're really small and therefore easy to occupy. Ofc they do have great natural defences since they're islands but that doesn't really make up for the fact that they're easy to invade because of their small size....provided that the Iron Fleet is defeated first, which is a pretty big problem.

In any case, if it were Eddard Stark who would've risen in rebellion against Robert instead of Balon Greyjoy, I'd say the North would've at least taken much longer to subdue. First off, the North has much larger populace, great natural defences, and some very strong castles like Winterfell that the Ironborn lack. Plus there's the difficulty of keeping an army supplied in the North. Food there isn't near as abundant as in the Riverlands. Similarly to Dorne, the northmen could fight a guerilla war against the conquerors. And eventually winter would cause very serious problems for any invading army.

And btw, Balon's conquest of the north probably did last over a year....yet the ironborn were unable to make any headway beyond their initial gains. So clearly his plan didn't quite work out as planned.

As to the conquest of Dorne, as I recall Daeron installed some Lord Tyrell to hold the place, and he essentially moved around from castle to castle to ensure the dornish remained on their knees. Eventually he was poisoned.

But I find it pretty hard to believe that the Targaryens would lose 50 000 men to just random assassinations. For that many losses, there must have been a fair deal of skirmishes and likely even some battles (perhaps something like the Horns of Hattin, with the Dornish drawing the invaders to the deserts). Hopefully the World of Ice and Fire will provide more information of the course of the war, but at this point we only know that Daeron took acceptable losses taking Dorne, but suffered massive losses while trying to hold the region.

[First of My Name]

North, Dorne, Vale, Islands, Wester, River/Reach

[TheCrannogDweller]

I also agree that the Vale would be difficult, given the terrain and the mountain clans lurking about, plus the fortress of the Eyrie.

Well, the Eyrie is kinda pointless though - it doesn't control the approach to the Vale itself and it is strategically useless, once you surround it. True - it is practically impossible to conquer and difficult to starve out (it has stores as big as Winterfell's), but you wouldn't really need to take it anyway. You also wouldn't need a big army to siege it, because it can hold a very small garrison.

The Stormlands seem kind of desolate, meaning it'd probably be hard to keep an army supplied. The Westerlands and the Reach seem to have easy-ish terrain (apart from the Westerlands' rockiness), but they also have larger armies with which to defend themselves.

I think the Stormlands' terrain and lack of exploitable resources give it the edge, but that's just me.

The westerlands have a very defensible border with the riverlands so I don't know why they come so low down people's lists.

The Stormlands have the Dornish marches, which protect them from the Reach and Dorne, but they are wide open from the north, and the region itself isn't that big that you can't supply your troops from your own territory.

The Westerlands, on the other hand, are surrounded by hills and mountains and are only accessible through three roads, each of which is guarded by a fortress.

For me Dorne is the toughest region to invade. The main reason is because even Aegon the Conqueror couldn't invade dorne... He took the North however...

But Aegon never set foot in the North - Torrhen simply knelt before him and that was that.

What puzzles me is why people tend to rank the Iron Islands that low: They're bloody islands with a hardy and warlike population who happen to control the largest, biggest and baddest single individual fleet in Westeros. It took the whole fucking country to bring them to their knees, and only because Stannis (commanding both the Royal, Dragonstone and Redwyne Fleets as Master of Ships) crushed the Iron Fleet at Faircastle.

Anyway, the facts are simple. Balon almost conquered the North with his 1 region. To subdue him in his rebellion took all 7 of the others. Refute that if you can.

I can refute it all day long. It took forces from 3 (maybe 4) of the other kingdoms to subdue Pyke, not counting the fleet and keeping in mind that Robert and his allies didn't take absolutely EVERY warrior of their respective regions. So yes, it's not like they had 150 000 men (North + Westerlands + Riverlands + (possibly) some of the Stormlands) - for one thing, imagine the logistics of transporting such an army overseas.

Also, even in Robert's Rebellion, the armies never exceeded 40 000 men.

[TheLostStark]

1. Vale

2. Dorne

3. North

4. Iron Island

5. Casterly Rock

6. Reach

7. Riverlands

8. Storm lands

9. Crownlands

[Lord Reaver]

not counting the fleet

Why would you not count the fleet ? It's rather important in this case...

and keeping in mind that Robert and his allies didn't take absolutely EVERY warrior of their respective regions. So yes, it's not like they had 150 000 men (North + Westerlands + Riverlands + (possibly) some of the Stormlands) - for one thing, imagine the logistics of transporting such an army overseas.

I can't recall ever having read that Robert didn't call all his banners for the war, or that he only took a token force. We do know that Ned took such outlying lords as the Mormonts with him, so it sounds like he certainly scrounged up every available hand.

And the logistics of it is exactly the point. It is vastly simpler to move a small force around the neck to assault it from it's indefensible side and then move huge armies up it than having to ferry over your soldiers in ships a small amount at a time while being harassed by a hostile fleet. This is why Stannis' victory at Fair Isle was absolutely crucial to the successful attack on the Iron Isles.

Also, even in Robert's Rebellion, the armies never exceeded 40 000 men.

Individual armies, no. That's different from the personell invested in the fight however.

[Juli Greyjoy]

Probably Dorne, the Vale and the Iron Islands.

[Winterz]

What's with the "Iron Islands"? If you have a strong fleet, the Iron Islands are screwed. Once you defeat their not-so-united-fleet their islands will be pretty easy to take. Their keeps are weak and so are the defenders on such terms.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Why would you not count the fleet ? It's rather important in this case...

I didn't want to, because I'm not good at calculating naval strength, but fine, let's do an estimate - let's say the whole fleet numbered 10 000 men (and that's a pretty generous number, IMO).

I can't recall ever having read that Robert didn't call all his banners for the war, or that he only took a token force. We do know that Ned took such outlying lords as the Mormonts with him, so it sounds like he certainly scrounged up every available hand.

I don't think so. The whole rebel army at the Trident was about 35 - 40 000 men (Robb Stark alone could've mustered that many if he wasn't pressed by time). And this was their full force - mostly soldiers from the North, but also from the Vale, the Riverlands and a small number from the Stormlands.

So Robert won the throne with about 40 000 men - I find it really unlikely that he would've fought Balon with a bigger army than that. Keep in mind that the Iron Islands are basically the least populous of the kingdoms and can summon no more than 20-25 000 men.

[Morienthar]

Historically Dorne.....

The North as in till the wall.

Beyond the wall too would be a hard place to conqure,if it was possible some one would have done it by now.

[King Aerys the Just]

Or you would need to land near White Harbour, ravage the lands there, and hope the Starks will run down to defend it. If they do, hope you can pull off a Hastings. If they don't raid the coasts and invade annually until they do.

On attacking the North:

Split the naval force in two. The smaller one lands forces on the west coast, and tries to take Moat Cailin from the northern side. The larger one goes after White Harbour with as many troops as you can get your hands on. Once White Harbour (the commercial/trading hub of the North) falls, you've free rein over the seas, and with Moat Cailin in the bag, more men and supplies can be brought up through the Neck. Further naval attacks go after Bear Island and Deepwood Motte, both of which have vulnerable coasts, and more to the point, prevent the North from making a concerted effort to get White Harbour back: the Northerners have to run back and forth across a continent.

Then, if winter comes, simply wait. The occupied coast would be the place to be, with a better climate, and easier access to food. Play divide and conquer with the Northern lords in the meantime (would Messers Manderly, Mormont, and Glover like their lands back? Just bend the knee. and all will be well again). Then there's the Boltons, who may be open to terms...

Basically the Russia analogy falls over because no-one attacks Russia by sea. Plus it's less about occupying the North and more about forcing them into submission.

This.

The North is still likely the hardest region to invade though, even if it isn't impossible for a power like the Iron Throne to do it. Naval attacks should work against all other regions with strong natural borders too, and likely even better considering that they are much smaller and aside from the Westerlands also have less manpower than the North does.

As for Dorne while they may have warm deserts and stuff most of the population and important sites should be concentrated around the coastlines and large rivers in the country anyway, since people don't eat sand. So those would make for very obvious targets for any invader, and not be much harder to fight in than anywhere else, since they'd be wet and fertile areas regardless of how much of the rest of Dorne might be desert. These areas also be relatively small and thus easier to occupy. I think Stannis also says that this was how Dorne was conquered; by a fleet that sailed up the Greenblood while Daeron was sitting in the mountain passes doing nothing.

[Lord Reaver]

What's with the "Iron Islands"? If you have a strong fleet, the Iron Islands are screwed.

That's a pretty big "if" there. Which is precisely the point.

You can take the north if you have enough men and ships to bypass the Neck too.

Question is: Which "if" is bigger ? To me, that's the fleet issue. Plenty of people to be found in Westeros. Big fleets ? Well there were 3 once. Now there's 2. And one of those belongs to the Ironborn themselves....

[Batman]

All I can say to this is that you have a strange definition of "help".

You're missing the point that Balon never intended to take the North in that way, that was just Theon's plan whether you apprechiate the daring or just think it was crazy. Balon explains his plan to Theon before he sends him out; He'll take all the outlying castles and hold them until Winterfell gives up, which he expects might take as much as a year.

Daeron installed a guy from the Dornish marches (you know, the place where they've been killing Dornishmen for thousands of years) as the governor of Dorne (the place known for use of poison). A spectacularly bad move. The ensuing deaths had less to do with the environment than it had to do with the Dornish taking every chance to assasinate the foreign troops.

Anyway, the facts are simple. Balon almost conquered the North with his 1 region. To subdue him in his rebellion took all 7 of the others. Refute that if you can.

Daeron installed a Tyrell of Highgarden to rule Dorne. An enemy for centuries and a former steward besides.

[Batman]

Balon took Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte and raid Stony Shore, plus Theon and Dagmer took Torhenn Square and Winterfell(both would be retake if Ramsay didn't betray Starks). If this is almost conquered North then Robb almost conquered West. Even his plan that WF would stand 1 year is odd because Riverrun could hold with supplies 2 years and Dreadfort hold 4 years until Starks won.

Under siege no less. It did not seem like Balon planned on laying siege which meant they could still harvest crops or bring supplies in from white harbour. It also left them, if there was a Stark who could, to rally the forces left in the North.