Most difficult Kingdoms to invade?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They should be above the stormlands as they are not as exposed.

I think the Stormlands' terrain and lack of exploitable resources give it the edge, but that's just me.

[Dagon Greyjoy]

Got the isle and the keep mixed up, sorry!

[The Marquis de Leech]

As I've said elsewhere, the North is utterly screwed by its combination of massive coastlines and no navy. Moat Cailin is only effective against land attacks - in the days before Aegon, that'd have been enough, but not now.

[TalalOfDorne]

Dorne, the North, and the Vale.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As I've said elsewhere, the North is utterly screwed by its combination of massive coastlines and no navy. Moat Cailin is only effective against land attacks - in the days before Aegon, that'd have been enough, but not now.

And why did Aegon make any difference? I'm pretty sure the North was still navy-less and other kingdoms had navies before Aegon's Landing.

[Lion of Judah]

When I think of an army invading the North I always reference Napoleon's famous words about his battle for Moscow. 'The French showed themselves to be worthy of victory, but the Russians showed themselves worthy of being invincible.' To win in a region like the North you would need a quick decisive strike at the capitol. The location of Winterfell makes that all but impossible since it's leagues away from the sea and by land the Northmen can just draw an enemy in deeper and deeper into the cold terrain.

[Chaircat Meow]

Or you would need to land near White Harbour, ravage the lands there, and hope the Starks will run down to defend it. If they do, hope you can pull off a Hastings. If they don't raid the coasts and invade annually until they do.

[Podrick Payne Future King]

1. North

2. West- including the lannister army

3. Dorne- natural defenses and untouched by the war so far

4. Vale- mountains, the Earie is a boss castle

5. Reach- 2 big cities and very rich

6. Storm lands- sort of boring and very depleted troops bc of Stannis

7. Riverlands- currently wrecked

[Lion of Judah]

Landing at White Harbor leaves any enemy open to attack from 3 sides with a retreat by sea the only option if your force cannot sustain a Northern offensive.

[The Marquis de Leech]

And why did Aegon make any difference? I'm pretty sure the North was still navy-less and other kingdoms had navies before Aegon's Landing.

Because pre-Aegon, you were dealing with multiple Kingdoms. They simply didn't have the available resources, and if they did move their forces north, they'd be opening themselves to attack from their neighbours.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On attacking the North:

Split the naval force in two. The smaller one lands forces on the west coast, and tries to take Moat Cailin from the northern side. The larger one goes after White Harbour with as many troops as you can get your hands on. Once White Harbour (the commercial/trading hub of the North) falls, you've free rein over the seas, and with Moat Cailin in the bag, more men and supplies can be brought up through the Neck. Further naval attacks go after Bear Island and Deepwood Motte, both of which have vulnerable coasts, and more to the point, prevent the North from making a concerted effort to get White Harbour back: the Northerners have to run back and forth across a continent.

Then, if winter comes, simply wait. The occupied coast would be the place to be, with a better climate, and easier access to food. Play divide and conquer with the Northern lords in the meantime (would Messers Manderly, Mormont, and Glover like their lands back? Just bend the knee. and all will be well again). Then there's the Boltons, who may be open to terms...

Basically the Russia analogy falls over because no-one attacks Russia by sea. Plus it's less about occupying the North and more about forcing them into submission.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think anyone is arguing that it's impossible to take the North by the sea. The argument is that it's one thing to take the territory and another thing to hold it. You'd think if it were that easy, someone would've done it successfully by now ... the ironborn have come the closest and it's not going so swimmingly for them, even with most of the Northern forces out of the country. It's one of those things that's easy to smugly write down on paper and another thing entirely to actually do it.

You mention White Harbor ... what happened to the slavers that got stuck there when the White Knife froze? What happens when you misread the seasons and the weather and end up stranded there? Trying to use winter to your advantage in a country that is better at withstanding tough winters than any other? I'm sorry, what?

[Draco_Dracul]

A toss up between Dorne and the North. Dorne's inhospitable terrain and hot summers can cripple any army. The North has Moat Calin, it's harsh winters and it's shear size.

[IRON BANK]

I'd have to go with the areas that are so well defended no Lord has even tried to pass through, attacked, or punished for not chosing a side.

1. The vale (Even though Lysa held Tyrion no attack was directly made)

2. Dorne - The deserts, and marshes in this area sound pretty formidable

3. Old town - The defenses described within this city seem pretty tough, non crooked city watch, navy, rich banner men, scholarly nobles, an island toward the center of its bay with, a huge defensive tower/ light house.

[HouseHarrison]

The North in winter will defeat any army.

[Charerg]

I agree that the North would be almost impossible to hold effectively. Even the Ironborn, while they managed to capture a few castles (with more than a little help from Ramsay Snow), couldn't really control the land itself.

Asha remarks in aDwD that she couldn't go to Dagmer at Torrhen's Square even if she wanted because there are too many northmen in between. So, the Ironmen didn't really manage to hold much of the area at the end of the day. Likewise, she says in aCoK that Winterfell is ringed with hostile holdfasts and castles, meaning that there are plenty of minor keeps around. So, the Ironborn only managed to conquer very small tracts of the North, even with the advantage of surprise, Bolton treachery and the best part of the northern army a thousand leagues away.

And if you compare the North to Dorne, both Aegon the Conqueror and the Young Dragon managed to invade and briefly occupy Dorne (Aegon with dragons, Daeron with ships), but failed to hold it in the long run. Anyone trying to claim the North would face a similar situation, while their navies and such could potentially initially conquer the area, they would likely lose far more men trying to hold the place than actually taking it (Daeron was said to los 10k men taking Dorne, and 50k trying to hold it).

[Lord Reaver]

I agree that the North would be almost impossible to hold effectively. Even the Ironborn, while they managed to capture a few castles (with more than a little help from Ramsay Snow), couldn't really control the land itself.

All I can say to this is that you have a strange definition of "help".

Asha remarks in aDwD that she couldn't go to Dagmer at Torrhen's Square even if she wanted because there are too many northmen in between. So, the Ironmen didn't really manage to hold much of the area at the end of the day. Likewise, she says in aCoK that Winterfell is ringed with hostile holdfasts and castles, meaning that there are plenty of minor keeps around. So, the Ironborn only managed to conquer very small tracts of the North, even with the advantage of surprise, Bolton treachery and the best part of the northern army a thousand leagues away.

You're missing the point that Balon never intended to take the North in that way, that was just Theon's plan whether you apprechiate the daring or just think it was crazy. Balon explains his plan to Theon before he sends him out; He'll take all the outlying castles and hold them until Winterfell gives up, which he expects might take as much as a year.

And if you compare the North to Dorne, both Aegon the Conqueror and the Young Dragon managed to invade and briefly occupy Dorne (Aegon with dragons, Daeron with ships), but failed to hold it in the long run. Anyone trying to claim the North would face a similar situation, while their navies and such could potentially initially conquer the area, they would likely lose far more men trying to hold the place than actually taking it (Daeron was said to los 10k men taking Dorne, and 50k trying to hold it).

Daeron installed a guy from the Dornish marches (you know, the place where they've been killing Dornishmen for thousands of years) as the governor of Dorne (the place known for use of poison). A spectacularly bad move. The ensuing deaths had less to do with the environment than it had to do with the Dornish taking every chance to assasinate the foreign troops.

Anyway, the facts are simple. Balon almost conquered the North with his 1 region. To subdue him in his rebellion took all 7 of the others. Refute that if you can.

[Sullen]

During summer: The Vale, Dorne, and the Iron Islands.

During winter, the North.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Anyway, the facts are simple. Balon almost conquered the North with his 1 region. To subdue him in his rebellion took all 7 of the others. Refute that if you can.

It helped Balon that the vast majority of Northern forces who would have otherwise successfully repulsed him were gone. There's a reason he waited until the country had cleared out before he made a move.

[Bayard]

If we're thinking most difficult to invade, not conquer:

1) Dorne

2) The Iron Islands

3) The North

4) The Vale

5) The Westerlands