[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

[Jon Icefyre]

I agree, Are they going to let Cersei do anything on her own, or is Joffrey and Tywin going to do everything? Cersei and Catelyn are the biggest changes fro the books for me.

I'm assuming they're gonna wait until the season that covers AFFC to really give Cersei her independece on the show, as that's when neither Joffrey nor Tywin will be around to restrict her.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Jon Icefyre

[The Mondrian Oak]

LOL! Truly, good catch. I hadn't noticed.

Yes, nice catch indeed, except it was FRINGED sleeves.

[seraphbrimstone]

this is one of my favorite cliff haggers

what is going to happen to Brienne

While questing to find Sansa Stark, Brienne of Tarth encounters Gendry at the inn, and is shocked by his striking resemblance to Renly Baratheon. At the inn, Brienne duels with Rorge and slays him, only to be savaged by Biter. Gendry saves Brienne's life by driving a spear through Biter's neck.^[7]

I think they'll still find a way to do that... at least, I hope so. That scene is one of the only really exciting ones in books four and five and would have made an excellent climax to season 5. maybe davos will help gendry escape, and then he'll rejoin the brotherhood?

[Nictarion]

More like they just shat all over cats character from one of the strongest, smart POV characters to the lamp in the background when ever they show robb.

:agree:

[rohit39]

For some thoughts of my own.

1) Eliminating Ser Dontos from the show till now, and having LF act directly, and especially act right before he leaves for the Vale himself would definitely make everyone at KL suspicious wouldn't it? I mean imagine if Sansa had agreed to be whisked away with LF on his ship, it would be pretty obvious to Tywin (with the help of advice from Varys for sure) that LF is behind Sansa's disappearance. I think the show really messed up there. And also, now that LF has left to the Vale, who would be the person to arrange PW and Sansa'a escape? Introduction of a Kettleblack perhaps?

2) Enough of LF-Varys scenes. They've been desperately trying to capture the chemistry, intrigue, and awesomeness their conversations had in previous seasons, but failing quite miserably.

3) The Bran-Reed-Osha part of the story is getting to be the biggest disappointment of this season so far. The story does not seem to be moving anywhere. Seizures during green dreams? The Osha- Meera rivalry. All unwanted.

4) While i was against any Theon containing scene in this season, i have to admit that this episode's scene with Theon and the Bastard was quite brilliant. And in retrospect, maybe such scenes are required to lay the foundation to show exactly how twisted Ramsay Snow (Bolton, i'm sorry!) is. Because he does become important later.

5) While deviating from the books, the Tyrion-Cersei scene was still quite good IMHO. They share great on screen chemistry. And also that scene, along with the Ros scene kind of puts Joffrey back in the limelight. Because in this season, apart from the crossbow scene with Margaery, the typical Joffrey scenes have been missing. D&D would be well aware to make sure the viewers well and truly hate him, and keep him in the viewers recent memory by the time PW happens.

6) Melissandre and Gendry. While i did not like it because it was a more of detour than a deviation from the books, i can see why it is necessary. Better than introducing a new character like Edric Storm anyhow. But it does cheapen the values and goals of the BwB under Beric.

7) I start watching each episode wondering if we will see Sam the Slayer in action, and on seeing the dragonglass dagger this episode, i couldn't help myself smiling!

8) Its been elaborated elsewhere, but the whitewashing of Tyrion doesn't go down well with me. Also i believe it would have carried more impact to the viewers if it happened like the books where Sansa was unaware of her pending nuptials with Tyrion until the day of the wedding. Makes it all the more brutal and exacts pity for Sansa from the viewers. Viewers currently just perceive Sansa as a naive, annoying little baby who refuses to grow up and start to think for herself. While she is that and more in a lot of ways, i'm worried that her character growth when she gets to Vale would not carry the same impact on the show.

To sum up, the episode was a bit disappointing for a lot of the changes. But the effect of these changes will only be seen in future episodes i suppose. So i hope they were done for a reason!

[Druze]

Are we gonna get the Tywin stare of death at Joffrey and subsequent verbal smack down of his grace the mad king Joffrey? That was poetry in the books. Not sure if that was post or pre-RW

[Brewmaster]

Why do people keep bringing up Mel's "we will meet again" as some kind of hint or spoiler for future books?

For fucks sake, people, we know that Mel's visions (or at least her interpretation of them) are not reliable. She certainly has access to some power, but she is far from being right all (or even most) of the time.

She very well may never meet Arya again

The other thing some people seem to be missing is that we do get these Theon/Ramsay scenes in the books. The show is being told chronologically, while the books were not. Most of the Theon/Reek chapters in ADWD were Theon reliving the torture that was taking place (chronologically) at this time. That doesn't work for a TV show. We don't have internal monologues, and 2 years from now they aren't going to spend all of Theon's screen time in his head. But in Theon's chapters he spent more time focusing on the terrible things that Ramsay did to him in the past, than he spent focusing on what was happening around him in real time.

These Theon scenes are basically "book scenes". Just book scenes from ADWD that were only told after the fact. And as such, they are absolutely neccessary to tell the story. 1 or 2 scenes doesn't cut it. It wouldn't make Ramsay the monster that he becomes. Ramsay (for most book readers) far and away has surpassed Joffrey as most hated villian of the series by the end of ADWD. And he gets to that point mostly by Theon's "flashbacks" on the torture was enduring at this time in the story. You have to show it...have to, if you want Ramsay to be the big bastard that he is in a couple years. You can't just show a broken Theon and have him cry "Ramsay did it to me"

.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Brewmaster

[blackeyedlily]

The Ramsay bit is forcing me to skip parts of the episodes. I just can't watch that much torture for that length of time.

I concur! I hope it won't continue to the degree that it is now. Though I do understand that the the show creators do want to establish Ramsey Snow's character and they have to give non-book readers a way to understand how Theon becomes Reek. Yet I hope they can limit it now that they have established what's happening. I guess they still have to clarify where Theon is and who the captor is.

[Peptalk]

This is completely wrong. They can show the broken shell of a man Theon becomes and let the audience's imagination get to work. They don't need to show it. This cut to 5 minutes of Theon torture every episode is neither interesting or compelling.

It doesn't take up a lot of time in every episode. It takes up some time in some episodes.

[Sun]

Arya will kill a brown eyed person, a blue eyed person, and a green eyed person...which to me suggests a Lannister.

Both Nickolaj and Lena have blue eyes, not green. I think it references the people she will be killing in the not so far future - people we know she killed in the books - starting with Polliver.

I really wish they had allowed Mel to say the blood of the wolf, smell of death line to Arya.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Sun

[adeadhand]

Am I the only one who immediately thought "Stannis" when Mel mentions she'll see Arya again?

It does fit perfectly into Martins' symmetry.

Stannis acquires power through the assassinations of Renly, Penrose, Balon, Robb and Joff. It makes sense he will also die by assassination.

Or is that too literal an interpretation?

I did enjoy the episode. I don't see anything gratuitous about the Ramsey scene. It's quite relevant that he manipulates Theon into begging to have his finger taken off. They're establishing the dynamic between the two.

It was also nice to see Tormund being somewhat Tormund.

Oh, and Paul Kaye is killing it as Thoros.

Edited May 6, 2013 by adeadhand

[red snow]

And here I was thinking they'd never top the "Red Wedding" in terms of shocking deaths. Clearly the show has characters the book has been deprived of :)

I'm enjoying the Theon scenes but that's because I'm possibly strange in that I enjoy any scenes that aren't directly from the books.Otherwise it just feels like going through the motions.

[Sun]

Am I the only one who immediately thought "Stannis" when Mel mentions she'll see Arya again?

It does fit perfectly into Martins' adherence to the "live by the sword die by the sword" motto.

Stannis acquires power through the assassinations of Renly, Penrose, Balon, Robb and Joff. It makes sense he will also die by assassination.

I'm guessing just in time for the Others to invade and Jon and Dany to come to the rescue.

I took it as a hint from the show that Arya will indeed make it to the wall in TWOW. I'm likely wrong though lol

[Honey Badger]

Loved it, as usual. Ros finally dying brought a smile to my face, although I'll miss the actor's stunning body. I wish she had a better role on the show, even though I'm sure the actress was grateful for her involvement.

Theon torture was cringe worthy and I even squinted and turned my face a few times. I think they need to efficiently show how fucked up Bolton is, so I understand D&D being so graphic.

She very well may never meet Arya again

Oh, they'll meet again. With Arya slipping a stiletto into Mel's neck. Oh yes.

I'm enjoying the Theon scenes but that's because I'm possibly strange in that I enjoy any scenes that aren't directly from the books.Otherwise it just feels like going through the motions.

Same here. For those whining about deviations from the book, try watching the new Berserk OVAs. Beautiful movies, but incredibly boring because I'm already so familiar with the manga and first anime series. GoT throws a few curveballs, and I like the surprises. Also, although it will never match the impossibly gorgeous billion dollar sets I have in my mind, I like seeing HBO/D&D's interpretation of the show. Their wall, their characters and designs, their music, etc.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Honey Badger

[jeffklm]

In the show Ramsay knows that Bran and Rickon are alive. Do you think this will play into the story somehow? Perhaps he will send a hunting scout to look for them, and that's when Bran's party decides they should split and have Bran/Jojen/Meera/Hodor and Osha/Rickon go their separate ways. Speaking of which I hope we get to see Osha/Rickon's journey to Skagos in the show.

Ros's death was horrifying. I'm glad that as book readers we can still be shocked. And it reinforces Joffrey's sadistic persona. He was presented as more of a love-sick and awestruck puppy in the first half of the season so it was a welcome change (or reversion) of character. In seasons 1 and 2 we had constant reminders of this in the form of Ned's beheading, baby slaughter, whore torturing, Sansa's beating & stripping, and Flea Bottom riot.

I for one am satisfied that they are showing the Theon/Ramsay scenes chronologically rather than in flashbacks. And like other people have pointed out, the scenes help establish Ramsay's character and Theon's ultimate demise. I've seen a lot of complaints about not showing things that happen in flashback in this forum, but isn't this way much better? The show doesn't have the luxury of internal monologues and spelled-out clockwork of characters' thoughts.

Speaking of flashbacks, I know it's a bit off topic, but I would love to see a spin-off/prequel that chronicles the events of Robert's Rebellion. There are enough materials that could easily cover 2 or 3 seasons worth of episodes. Maybe they can do it a la Spartacus, inserting it while GoT is on hiatus while waiting for A Dream of Spring?

Edited May 6, 2013 by jeffklm

[Sniraga]

I liked this episode.

Tywin and Olenna's scene was very good. Finally someone who can keep his wits intact while discussing with QoT and Tywin is just the right person for that.

In the books the Bran stuff was a little boring, but in the show I'm really liking his journey. The actors are all so very good - I'm especially enamored by the Reeds. And did Rickon actually speak? lol

The Mel/Gendry/BWB storyline seems exciting as well. I guess I'm getting old or something, but the deviated stuff is starting to seem almost more interesting than more book-faithful storylines.

I must be the only one who isn't sold on Jaime/Brienne scenes. In the books theirs was perhaps my favourite storyline, but I'm just not feeling it here. I like Gwendoline Christie though.

While I understand the need to keep Theon in the show, the torture scenes are unpleasant to say the least (yes, I'm a wuss) and seem disjointed. They could use the time more wisely.

The Wall climb was very well done. It seemed a lot more horrendous than in the books, I definitely couldn't have make it. The banter between Jon and Ygritte felt natural and I'm starting to like their developing relationship.

Goodbye, Ros. I never really liked you, but I didn't hate you either, and that was a very shocking and sad way to go.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Sniraga

[Demiant]

I'm not so bothered about TV Tyrion deviating a bit from book Tyrion, but I do find it interesting that they're trying to turn Cersei into a "nicer" person apparently. Maybe nicer isn't the best choice of words but certainly less of a villain, for the time being atleast. Shame because Cersei's tyranny is the only remotely interesting aspect of her character, though maybe that'll come into play from her grief after the RW?

The Littlefinger scene at the end was all wrong though, just completely unlike the character to just reveal everything the way he did. And more so, the entire scene just made Varys look like an incompetent "spider" and Littlefinger like the master schemer, and whilst Littlefinger is an interesting character and a crafty puppet master, he has nothing on Varys. ;)

Also, the QoT just seemed like a massive pushover in her scene with Tywin.

I thought the last two episodes were great, but I feel a bit let down after "The Climb" and I hope GRRM picks things up with his episode next week.

[Joyful Union]

3) The Bran-Reed-Osha part of the story is getting to be the biggest disappointment of this season so far. The story does not seem to be moving anywhere. Seizures during green dreams? The Osha- Meera rivalry. All unwanted.

I agree, this story line has probably been the worst this season. But I disagree that it's been dissapointing, because Bran's POV in SoS is the worst in the book. Since when does Bran's story line move anywhere? At least there trying to develop Meera and Osha more.

[SerMudz]

I will be too. I'm thinking that instead of Tywin taking Shae into his bed, he'll have her killed, which will give Tyrion another reason to shoot him.

They do this and I'm done with the show.

[rohit39]

I agree, this story line has probably been the worst this season. But I disagree that it's been dissapointing, because Bran's POV in SoS is the worst in the book. Since when does Bran's story line move anywhere? At least there trying to develop Meera and Osha more.

I quite liked Bran's POV in ASOS actually! Lot of good moments, like when they take shelter from the rain in the cave along with that man and his wife (who evidently knew who they were). Not to mention all those conversations between Jojen and Bran, which help Bran grow as a character.

On another note, do Osha and Rickon go to Skagos at any point on the show? Or are they gonna put them all together till the Wall, because of how much the TV show Osha is liked by viewers?