[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

[rmholt]

It was not live or onscreen in the books though.

Well to me if it didnt happen in the books it isnt in the books. This happened in the books and the descriptions certainly match the TV depiction.

[rmholt]

I really wish they would cut down on the torture scenes and make them less explicit. If it is important to convey how evil Ramsay is, why can't it be done indirectly. For example, we were shown how Joffrey killed Ros and can infer things about his character without seeing the actual process of him putting all those arrows in her.

We could be shown a Theon with broken teeth/missing body parts, and infer from that the character of Ramsay. If they really need to show a torture scene, why not just show ONE and stop at that? From the episode 7 preview I am guessing they will be castrating Theon in the next episode, I really wish that was not in the episode.

Are they doing it for story development or to shock viewers? Is it healthy for people to watch this kind of thing?

I have seen more protests of the Theon torture scenes than Ros and other prostitute torture scenes including a baby killed in its mother's arms. In fact I have seen more complaints about those than the Ros death scene - many comments, many saying wow what a surprise but not at the creep factor. Little closer to home, boys?

[Akal Colzet]

I'm a guy and they don't bother me at all.

[House Lothston]

What did you guys think of the Freys? Well... I know what you all think of them ;) But I mean their portrayal? Lothar seems to be alright, but I always imagined Black Walder more... villainy and badass. Of course that might be because of the silly cap he was wearing :)

Anyways, I really loved the whole episode. Quite a few interesting things happened. I enjoyed the Cersei-Tyrion scene most... and Littlefingers speech sent a shiver through my spine...

[Rabel Dusk]

I enjoy the Jaime/Brienne show even more than the Tyrion/Bronn show. They don't even need to talk much - just looking at each other, something happens that goes out to the audience.

[-Ghost-]

Not a change really is it? Theon's POV describe what happened to him and it seems pretty much in line with the show action

I would say so. Instead of waiting 2 more seasons to have Theon remember what happened we get it now. The same stuff that Theon remembers happening from the book is still going to, I imagine, but now we get to actually see it and see Ramsay and Theon interacting together.

[Meddler]

I guess my problem with Theon is that short of some non-book storyline, he doesn't really have much to do between now and Season 5 except be tortured. So what are they going to do? Have Ramsay take a digit or a toe off every two episodes?

I've been wondering if they'll do the sequence where he tries to escape with Kyra. It would feel a bit redundant to his initial escape attempt with Ramsay, but they do seem to be hinting that they're going to keep the love-of-the-hunt aspect of Ramsay intact, so I have a feeling we'll see another escape attempt thwarted.

Otherwise I do think it's mostly going to be Theon getting broken and transformed into Reek. Not necessarily just tortured, but broken, to the point where he's viewing himself as "Ramsay's creature". I do imagine some of the ADwD stuff will get moved up to season 4, possibly the Moat Cailin stuff, but it may be more just some of the details, like why Reek starts rhyming is name with everything and earning a bit of Ramsay's trust and getting to sleep with the dogs and eat meat. It doesn't actually cover THAT many pages in the books, but there's really a lot that the show can cover between Moat Cailin (which may not actually be Moat Cailin, we'll see), Barrowtown, and the Winterfell wedding--even expanded on. They could show Roose conspiring with the Karstarks, some of the story with Alys Karstark and her escape (maybe they could even have Ramsay try to hunt her with or instead of Cregan, fail, and go on a tirade), all the murders at Winterfell, etc. A lot of the specific details of the dynamic between Ramsay and Theon will likely be moved up into semi-invented stories, since those are things we don't see in the books until much later, and that would also clear room for more heavy plot lifting with this arc during seasons 5 and 6.

I also wonder if they're going to even include the Maderly/Glover subversion. There's no Wex, so no one knows Bran and Rickon are alive besides Theon and Ramsay at this point. Maybe they'll blend Wex in with the Liddle at some point this season and have the Liddle serve that purpose later for Maderly and Glover.

[Kaitscralt]

Larry Williams, a non-reader who reviews the episodes on Otaku Assemble had to say about Theon this week that he doesn't understand why Theon is in the season if nothing is happening to him except him being tortured.

It's sort of funny that he picked up on that, because Theon isn't in the third book, and these scenes technically don't need to be happening.

[Zman1863]

I have seen more protests of the Theon torture scenes than Ros and other prostitute torture scenes including a baby killed in its mother's arms. In fact I have seen more complaints about those than the Ros death scene - many comments, many saying wow what a surprise but not at the creep factor. Little closer to home, boys?

For my part, and I think for most I've seen, the objection to the Theon scene is not its graphic content, but the fact that it was unnecessary to advance the plot at all. It takes away time from other stories that could have been given more depth. I think we'd be pretty strange indeed if the depiction of the torture of an adult man bothered us more on a sympathetic level than a depiction of the killing of a child.

[oakenhelm]

I have seen more protests of the Theon torture scenes than Ros and other prostitute torture scenes including a baby killed in its mother's arms. In fact I have seen more complaints about those than the Ros death scene - many comments, many saying wow what a surprise but not at the creep factor. Little closer to home, boys?

I can't comment for everything and everyone, only myself. Part of the reason you are seeing this about Theon is that there is a contingent of posters that are enjoying those scenes. It makes the opposition more vocal, imo. I don't recall much cheering for the other scenes.

Another thing for me at least is the screen time. The Ros death scene was what 5 seconds maybe? There would be outrage if they actually showed Joff shooting her. Theon and Ramsay was a pretty lengthy scene of mental and physical torture.

[Zorpack]

I thought LF was suggesting he had given Ros to Qyburn for experiments, actually.

ME TOO!! That's immediately what I thought, however I think they are just mixing themes. They probably think necro-experimentation is too.....taboo. Though I cant understand how True Blood can get away with some of what it does....As a whole, I love the show Game of Thrones, but if they DID want to portray more along the books, I think they should have made the entire theme more dark, chilling and sinister. There were some parts that churned my stomach and gave me chills and some parts that were not even necessarily scary but so dark and cold and telling that I got goosebumps and strange feelings.

[oakenhelm]

ME TOO!! That's immediately what I thought, however I think they are just mixing themes. They probably think necro-experimentation is too.....taboo. Though I cant understand how True Blood can get away with some of what it does....As a whole, I love the show Game of Thrones, but if they DID want to portray more along the books, I think they should have made the entire theme more dark, chilling and sinister. There were some parts that churned my stomach and gave me chills and some parts that were not even necessarily scary but so dark and cold and telling that I got goosebumps and strange feelings.

I see True Blood as a comedy...at least that's the only way I can enjoy it lol

[rmholt]

For my part, and I think for most I've seen, the objection to the Theon scene is not its graphic content, but the fact that it was unnecessary to advance the plot at all. It takes away time from other stories that could have been given more depth. I think we'd be pretty strange indeed if the depiction of the torture of an adult man bothered us more on a sympathetic level than a depiction of the killing of a child.

Oh. well I certainly disagree with that. I think it is really critical. But that's JMHO

[rmholt]

I can't comment for everything and everyone, only myself. Part of the reason you are seeing this about Theon is that there is a contingent of posters that are enjoying those scenes. It makes the opposition more vocal, imo. I don't recall much cheering for the other scenes.

Another thing for me at least is the screen time. The Ros death scene was what 5 seconds maybe? There would be outrage if they actually showed Joff shooting her. Theon and Ramsay was a pretty lengthy scene of mental and physical torture.

Perhaps. I enjoy them in an icky kind of way. My little finger (so to speak) still hurts from watching that. Also the suspense. Also the fact that the actor had not read ahead when he took the part.

[Brewmaster]

I've been wondering if they'll do the sequence where he tries to escape with Kyra. It would feel a bit redundant to his initial escape attempt with Ramsay, but they do seem to be hinting that they're going to keep the love-of-the-hunt aspect of Ramsay intact, so I have a feeling we'll see another escape attempt thwarted.

I don't know if Theon will get (m)any more escape attempts, but I do think they will hunt the Stark kids, resulting in Bran & Rickon splitting up in different directions.

[Brewmaster]

For my part, and I think for most I've seen, the objection to the Theon scene is not its graphic content, but the fact that it was unnecessary to advance the plot at all.

Yeah, but that's not true. It doesn't advance the immediate plot, but it's absolutely necessary in terms of the longer plot. There is a reason that GRRM spent so much of ADWD with Theon flashbacks. Theon spends more time in his head, remembering his torture at the hands of Ramsay, than he does thinking about the present.

GRRM wouldnt have (and didn't) brought Theon back as a completely broken character 3 books after his capture, without being able to show that transformation happen. It's critical for the development of both Theon and Ramsay

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Nice to see that Ran's review includes a reference (though not by name) to his magnificent "Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory", the "GUCT" that served as endless fodder for discussion in the very early days of this Board's history.

Ran's right about the Brotherhood without Banners. I had no problem with combining the Edric/Gendry storylines, but the BwB essentially selling Gendry really mucks up their code and purpose for existing. Blech.

One of the major threads of criticism of the show is the loss of subtlety from the novels, and I can't quite figure out if that is necessary evil or not. There are so many small hints, references, etc.. in the books that are pieced together to form theories, and I don't think it is possible to replicate them in the show. So, you get a rather ham-handed exposition of Littlefinger, though it is essentially limited to his interactions with Varys. It's certainly annoying for those of us who already knew all this, but I really wonder if viewers would be able to pick up on it given the much more limited text/exposition inherent in the show as compared to the books. Is it better to be more obvious, or for some viewers to miss out on the importance of the character because they missed the subtleties? I think it is something of a tightrope for writers to walk, and it seems like they've decided to err on the side of obviousness rather than viewer confusion. I personally can accept that, but I also can see why some others can't.

Regardless of the ham-handedness, I'm thinking that the Ros scene was perhaps the best in that episode, because it manages to shock readers in a way many of us likely haven't been shocked since reading the books. I watched with a couple of readers, and we all sort of simultaneously gasped. That is rare in most adaptations when you're familiar to the books.

I also think it touched on some great themes, and hammered them home in a great stylistic counterpoint to the witty banter of Tywin/QoT, Roose/Jaime, Tyrion/Cersei, etc.. We get that clever dialogue, and then the visceral, visual shock of pure brutality kind of rams home the iron vist inside the velvet glove of all those pretty words. The scene clarified Joffrey's character so that people did not come to think that he was becoming "a nice guy" under Margaery's influence, it points out what a bastard LF really is, that Varys cares about the realm and people as a whole but not as individuals, that the lives of the smallfolk don't matter in the game", and overall, as a reminder as to how brutal life in Westeros can be. In that sense, it is a perfect set-up for the RW and especially the PW. And all in one short scene.

I suppose it also goes back to the point about subtlety. The books had more sort of vignettes about Joffrey's cruelty, with shooting peasants, torturing animals, etc.. But you just can't put all that stuff in the show for each character without episodes becoming more a recitation of facts rather than a story. So, they give you Joffrey killing Ros, and the same point is made in a much shorter piece of narrative. Something is lost, but ultimately, I'm not sure they have much of a choice.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

DP

Edited May 7, 2013 by Former Lord of Winterfell

[Vhailorian]

They'll still probably bitch because "SHE DIDN'T DIE IN THE BOOKS".

Roflmao...One of the best posts I have ever read...:)

[Zorpack]

I see True Blood as a comedy...at least that's the only way I can enjoy it lol

I completely agree. It was written as a comedy! But as far as the vampire f***ing and the f***ing with blood all over and f***ing while near fatally biting each other and explosions of guts and gore all over people......I don't see why Game of Thrones couldn't be made a bit more gory and taboo like in the books (more brutal torture of Theon, or the "dark" experiments of the twister Maester)....I loved how GRRM wrote things that are acceptable in our world as cryptic (Loras and Renly as lovers) and things completely unacceptable in our world as more forward (brother and sisters, and I know it frowned upon in the realm but it doesn't stop the descriptive Jamie/Cersei encounters and not to mention the sexual abuse of women by Victarion Greyjoy, amongst many additional male characters.) haha that was the point I was trying to make I guess ha

Edited May 7, 2013 by Zorpack