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[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion


Ran
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One of the major threads of criticism of the show is the loss of subtlety from the novels, and I can't quite figure out if that is necessary evil or not. There are so many small hints, references, etc.. in the books that are pieced together to form theories, and I don't think it is possible to replicate them in the show.

:agree: so very much

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This is completely wrong. They can show the broken shell of a man Theon becomes and let the audience's imagination get to work. They don't need to show it. This cut to 5 minutes of Theon torture every episode is neither interesting or compelling.

I find it interesting and compelling, better then watching a giant stereotype that is Loras or Sansa acting like a idiot.

Edited by Roboginger
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they really need to figure out something with brans storyline. i know his chapters in the books were so few and far between that it must be hard, but only having a few minutes of basically the same scene over and over is making my non-readers not care at all. we get it, they are wargs/greenseers etc. i just think it is going to be difficult giving it so little screen time when it is the most fantasy based story, a lot of non readers initially praised the show for its lack of non-fantasy elements. now im just rambling.

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Yeah, but that's not true. It doesn't advance the immediate plot, but it's absolutely necessary in terms of the longer plot. There is a reason that GRRM spent so much of ADWD with Theon flashbacks. Theon spends more time in his head, remembering his torture at the hands of Ramsay, than he does thinking about the present.

GRRM wouldnt have (and didn't) brought Theon back as a completely broken character 3 books after his capture, without being able to show that transformation happen. It's critical for the development of both Theon and Ramsay

Sure it's important for their development but they have already conveyed all that is necessary. We knew from the fact that Theon has been brought back to the same room that he's currently being tortured again by this unknown nutjob. All we got from this scene was a process of elimination hint as to Ramsay's identity, a hint which most TV viewers would not be able to parse out anyway.

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Also, am I the only one who has complete confidence that Davos will save Gendry?

Nope...I think once Gendry gets to Dragonstone everything is going to play out largely as it did for Edric. After Gendry is shipped off some clever (or not so clever) means will be found to get him back to where he needs to be.

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I'm a lurker, but I had to offer this for the people wondering about Loras/Kingsguard:

In the Garden conversation with Sansa, Sansa talks about how dangerous King's Landing is. Loras reflects on this a moment, thinking of the only person he loves as much as he loved Renly - his sister, the Queen-to-be. The Tyrells already know that Joff is a monster, but news of what he did to Ros will soon trickle out, and Loras will fear for his sister's like even more.

I think he will pledge himself directly to Joffrey and offer to serve on his Kingsguard. Tywin will of course not want this, but Joff will go against Tywin, probably because of the influence of Margaery (or Cersei, but it seems she holds no sway over her son).

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I don't see a thread specifically about this, and apologies if it's already been discussed, but what do people make of Mel's comment to Ayra that they'll meet again? Where and when? In the books obviously they've never met and as it stands don't look like doing so. Is this perhaps a hint that Arya will be sent to assassinate Mel (given speculation she will be sent to take out someone in the 'Game')?

Within the context of the TV series it would make sense since I can see Mel now being added to Arya's night-time list. Of course, the counter is that having met her, she now 'knows' Mel so might not be a viable assassin. Either way, it seems to me a possible foreshadowing of developments in later books?

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I think he will pledge himself directly to Joffrey and offer to serve on his Kingsguard. Tywin will of course not want this, but Joff will go against Tywin, probably because of the influence of Margaery (or Cersei, but it seems she holds no sway over her son).

Why would Tywin oppose that? Doesn't he want Loras to join the Kingsguard?

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I still think that Tyrion's whitewashing is much more severe and I will be extremely surprised if he kills Shae.

I agree, but to a certain degree I think all of the characters are suffering from such alterations. Some are being whitewashed and some are being darkened. The characters are diminished by this and made considerably less...challenging. I truly enjoy the show...for what it is. Unfortunately, the lack of nuance and subtlety in the show's character development does not allow viewers the freedom to interpret the characters. As troubling as the "re-imagining" of major characters can be, I find the problems particularly prevalent with the characters for whom we have no PoV in the books. I feel we are forced to swallow the show writers' interpretation of these characters, where in the books we have a great deal of freedom to view the characters in a myriad of ways.

The overt absolution of Cersei for the Bastard Hunt and the attempt on Tyrion's life serves to coddle the audience by providing easy answers without having to engage their minds. When left ambiguous, as in the books, the viewer is given freedom to speculate about who took the actions and what the motives may have been. This provides each reader with a sliding scale of morality and righteousness and leads to wildly differing opinions on who and what the characters are...to which anyone who frequents these boards can attest. :)

As much as I enjoy the show...and I do...I barely recognize these characters in their altered and simplified forms. Heh...Guess I will just have to start a reread as a pallet cleanser. :)

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Sure it's important for their development but they have already conveyed all that is necessary. We knew from the fact that Theon has been brought back to the same room that he's currently being tortured again by this unknown nutjob. All we got from this scene was a process of elimination hint as to Ramsay's identity, a hint which most TV viewers would not be able to parse out anyway.

We need each step of Theon's transformation. This epside showed that Theon's pinky is flayed (it will later be sent to Asha and/or Robb). It also set up that Ramsay plans to go on a hunt for Brack & Rickon.

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So does Loras have brothers in the show? I thought Willas was mentioned by Olenna in one of the first episodes, but in their convo last episode Tywin mentions that Loras is the heir to highgarden but if he's made KG, that would make Marge heir.

So why cut out the other brothers and make the Tyrells so close to extinction?

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So does Loras have brothers in the show? I thought Willas was mentioned by Olenna in one of the first episodes, but in their convo last episode Tywin mentions that Loras is the heir to highgarden but if he's made KG, that would make Marge heir.

So why cut out the other brothers and make the Tyrells so close to extinction?

It's either foreshadowing of the end of the series and that all but one of the Tyrell brothers dies that D&D have knowledge of, or pure stupidity, take your pick, I guess.

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It's either foreshadowing of the end of the series and that all but one of the Tyrell brothers dies that D&D have knowledge of, or pure stupidity, take your pick, I guess.

Well I'm sure that one of the Tyrell brothers will die which is why GRRM made sure there were 3 of them so one of them dying doesn't result in the end of the Tyrells. I'm going with pure stupidity for this one.

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Well I'm sure that one of the Tyrell brothers will die which is why GRRM made sure there were 3 of them so one of them dying doesn't result in the end of the Tyrells. I'm going with pure stupidity for this one.

That's my vote as well, but then I have a negative view of this season, I'm not seeing what others see, because Season 3 seems much more disjointed and flakey than Season 2 did, I've rewatched Season 2 episodes, some multiple times and I can barely stand to rewatch any episode of this season without hitting fast forward through at least a third of it.

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We need each step of Theon's transformation. This epside showed that Theon's pinky is flayed (it will later be sent to Asha and/or Robb). It also set up that Ramsay plans to go on a hunt for Brack & Rickon.

No we don't, they should maybe show him getting one finger flayed(already achieved), and then later cut to another scene where he is missing other fingers and toes viewers should be able to understand what happened to the rest. Or at most show losing another finger during that later cut.

But, I honestly don't want to see every step of the transformation especially some aspects of it.

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The other thing some people seem to be missing is that we do get these Theon/Ramsay scenes in the books. The show is being told chronologically, while the books were not. Most of the Theon/Reek chapters in ADWD were Theon reliving the torture that was taking place (chronologically) at this time. That doesn't work for a TV show. We don't have internal monologues, and 2 years from now they aren't going to spend all of Theon's screen time in his head. But in Theon's chapters he spent more time focusing on the terrible things that Ramsay did to him in the past, than he spent focusing on what was happening around him in real time.

These Theon scenes are basically "book scenes". Just book scenes from ADWD that were only told after the fact. And as such, they are absolutely neccessary to tell the story. 1 or 2 scenes doesn't cut it. It wouldn't make Ramsay the monster that he becomes. Ramsay (for most book readers) far and away has surpassed Joffrey as most hated villian of the series by the end of ADWD. And he gets to that point mostly by Theon's "flashbacks" on the torture was enduring at this time in the story. You have to show it...have to, if you want Ramsay to be the big bastard that he is in a couple years. You can't just show a broken Theon and have him cry "Ramsay did it to me"

This...exactly. I couldn't say it better if I tried...which I planned on doing when I got to the end of this thread. Thanks for saving me a lengthy post. :cheers:

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