[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

[BigBoss]

they really need to figure out something with brans storyline. i know his chapters in the books were so few and far between that it must be hard, but only having a few minutes of basically the same scene over and over is making my non-readers not care at all. we get it, they are wargs/greenseers etc. i just think it is going to be difficult giving it so little screen time when it is the most fantasy based story, a lot of non readers initially praised the show for its lack of non-fantasy elements. now im just rambling.

I completely agree. It seems like Bran's party hasn't moved since this season started. They should cut Theon's screen time and give it to Bran in order to progress his story.

[Cas Stark]

I completely agree. It seems like Bran's party hasn't moved since this season started. They should cut Theon's screen time and give it to Bran in order to progress his story.

Not much happens in his story until he gets to the children, but my idea would be that they could use his dreams to tell parts of the history, like tower of joy, lyanna stark stuff and/or prophecy/foreshadowing...it would keep to the three eyed crow vibe and give the segments some meaning. They also blew it when they didn't have the Reeds to the fire and ice loyalty oath, that could have been great TV, but, instead, nada.

[timstanton]

Not much happens in his story until he gets to the children, but my idea would be that they could use his dreams to tell parts of the history, like tower of joy, lyanna stark stuff and/or prophecy/foreshadowing...it would keep to the three eyed crow vibe and give the segments some meaning. They also blew it when they didn't have the Reeds to the fire and ice loyalty oath, that could have been great TV, but, instead, nada.

thats a great idea, doubt it would ever happen just for the fact of casting all those (new) dead characters...good idea though, they could do a lot of explanation pieces through his dreams. dont have to be so cryptic.

[BigBoss]

Not much happens in his story until he gets to the children, but my idea would be that they could use his dreams to tell parts of the history, like tower of joy, lyanna stark stuff and/or prophecy/foreshadowing...it would keep to the three eyed crow vibe and give the segments some meaning. They also blew it when they didn't have the Reeds to the fire and ice loyalty oath, that could have been great TV, but, instead, nada.

Agreed, I just felt that in the books Bran's chapters is where the readers learned more about warging through his interactions with Jojen and how Bran was starting to lose himself within Summer which I personally thought was interesting. Anyone else wondering what they are going to do with Rickon and Osha?

[Khal Porno]

Why do so many people have issues with the Theon torture stuff? Definitely much worse in the books, though maybe not for Theon is discussed. Weak stomachs!

I thought it was actually much less graphic than I imagined it from how Theon remembers it in the books.

There's very little actual physical torture. Most of what's going on in these scenes is Ramsay mindfucking Theon, and the performances are awesome. I think that is what people are enjoying (myself included), not the physical torture as someone suggested earlier.

And it's certainly not "torture porn." The Hostel movies are torture porn, there is a HUGE difference.

I also find that there's an interesting dichotomy here on the forums where people complain that characters are being made out to be less perfect than they are in the books ("character assassination"), and then also complaining that certain characters are being made more sympathetic ("whitewashing"). It seems like posters here want all the characters to fall on one end or the other of the moral spectrum.

[Cas Stark]

I thought it was actually much less graphic than I imagined it from how Theon remembers it in the books.

There's very little actual physical torture. Most of what's going on in these scenes is Ramsay mindfucking Theon, and the performances are awesome. I think that is what people are enjoying (myself included), not the physical torture as someone suggested earlier.

And it's certainly not "torture porn." The Hostel movies are torture porn, there is a HUGE difference.

I also find that there's an interesting dichotomy here on the forums where people complain that characters are being made out to be less perfect than they are in the books ("character assassination"), and then also complaining that certain characters are being made more sympathetic ("whitewashing"). It seems like posters here want all the characters to fall on one end or the other of the moral spectrum.

I don't see the problem w/the torture either, after all of the violence so far in GOT and he gets his finger skinned...what is the big deal?

As far as characters, I think people want them to be consistent with the books, not better, not worse, not dumber or smarter, not doing things that seem to be at odds with their character from the books.

[Khal Porno]

As far as characters, I think people want them to be consistent with the books, not better, not worse, not dumber or smarter, not doing things that seem to be at odds with their character from the books.

Yeah but here's the thing, I don't remember Tyrion being unlikeable at this point in the novels. If I remember my experience of reading the books (twice), at this point he was a "good guy" who hadn't really done anything despicable yet, and he didn't really start to become the way people say he ought to be until A Dance with Dragons.

[Minsc]

I also find that there's an interesting dichotomy here on the forums where people complain that characters are being made out to be less perfect than they are in the books ("character assassination"), and then also complaining that certain characters are being made more sympathetic ("whitewashing"). It seems like posters here want all the characters to fall on one end or the other of the moral spectrum.

Character Assassination is when they diminish a character's positive traits for no reason(Blackfish being a thug, Loras being a gay stereotype), while whitewashing is when they erase a character's complexity or darkness for no reason (Cersei and Tyrion).

It would be equally character assassination if they had Cersei not care for her children or if they added scenes of Tyrion sexually molesting Sansa for fun, equally it would be whitewashing if they didn't have Loras convince Renly to name himself king.

This doesn't mean they cannot make darker characters more sympathetic (Theon, Tywin, and Viserys) but this should come at the expense of deleting their dark activities. Aka Theon still needs to turn against Robb, Jaime needs to push Bran, Tywin needs to be a monster to Tyrion, and Viserys needs to be abusive to Dany only now we have better insight into why they doing such terrible acts.

[Khal Porno]

Character Assassination is when they diminish a character's positive traits for no reason(Blackfish being a thug, Loras being a gay stereotype), while whitewashing is when they erase a character's complexity or darkness for no reason (Cersei and Tyrion).

It would be equally character assassination if they had Cersei not care for her children or if they added scenes of Tyrion sexually molesting Sansa for fun, equally it would be whitewashing if they didn't have Loras convince Renly to name himself king.

This doesn't mean they cannot make darker characters more sympathetic (Theon, Tywin, and Viserys) but this should come at the expense of deleting their dark activities. Aka Theon still needs to turn against Robb, Jaime needs to push Bran, Tywin needs to be a monster to Tyrion, and Viserys needs to be abusive to Dany only now we have better insight into why they doing such terrible acts.

char·ac·ter as·sas·si·na·tion

Noun

The malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.

"That word you keep using, I don't think it means what you think it means."

Also just because Blackfish isn't very nice to Edmure doesn't make him a thug, and Loras isn't a gay stereotype even though people here love to claim he is.

[Cas Stark]

Yeah but here's the thing, I don't remember Tyrion being unlikeable at this point in the novels. If I remember my experience of reading the books (twice), at this point he was a "good guy" who hadn't really done anything despicable yet, and he didn't really start to become the way people say he ought to be until A Dance with Dragons.

Me, personally, I started to turn on him when he began to feel sorry for himself because Sansa wasn't attracted to him and then murdered his father and Shae, so it was before Dance but yes, at this point in the story I agree he was still likeable, even though of course lots of people continue to like him even at the end of Dance despite his numerous questionable activities.

But, its stuff like making Robb marry 'because I want to' instead of 'because honor demanded it' or changing the rationale for Cat freeing Jamie to before she thinks Bran and RIckon are dead, making it REALLY stupid and REALLY treasonous, or as others have said, attributing Cersei's murders to Joff in the show.

[Minsc]

Also just because Blackfish isn't very nice to Edmure doesn't make him a thug, and Loras isn't a gay stereotype even though people here love to claim he is.

The only thing Blackfish has done in the series is basically threaten and verbally abuse Edmure.

[Ser Steven]

I really liked the scene with Melisandre, Thoros, and Beric. I thought it was very insightful, and I love hearing Valyrian spoken. However, I HATED her interaction with Arya. HATED it. I wish DD would stop putting in bits and pieces of the future books. Let us read them on our own whenever they come out. It already sucks that the show might surpass the books.

I can only hope that this is one of Mel's incorrect prophecies. Maybe when they "meet again" it will really be the Karstark girl on the dying horse. And I'm not even going to bother guessing the eye thing. Especially since the actors all, or most of them, have different eye colors than their book characters.

A lot of people seemed to dislike this episode, but I didn't think it was that bad. I gave it a 7. I thought that the strongest scenes were with Roose, Jaime, and Brienne (lol at the dress!). I only wish it was longer. The Wall scenes were really good, minus the sappy final one, and Edmure wanting to pick his own Frey was hilarious. Those Frey guys were very odd looking!

I'm over Theon and Bran. They're both boring me, nothing is going on, and the whole "where is Theon/who is that guy?" thing has stretched out for far too long.

I'm curious to see how long they will stretch Jaime's journey to KL. Because he arrives AFTER the PW (because of that siiiick scene with Cersei) and I'm a believer that PW won't be til S4, so will the rest of S3 just be him journeying (and going back to get Bri of course)? There are still four eppys left.

It's fact that PW will not be this season WiC relased a synopsis of the last 2 episodes, and no PW.

[Masamune]

"That word you keep using, I don't think it means what you think it means."

Also just because Blackfish isn't very nice to Edmure doesn't make him a thug, and Loras isn't a gay stereotype even though people here love to claim he is.

Why split hairs over semantics? You know the point they're trying to make, so why quibble over trivialities in your vain attempt to blindly defend the show?

And Blackfish isn't a thug? In a handful of scenes so far, he's:

* Knocked the grieving Edmure out of the way to shoot the arrow.

* Punched Lord Karstark just for some backchat.

* Threatened to spark his nephew & liege lord for not clearing up Robb's mess.

Nah, you're right. He's a pussy cat.

[PatrickStormborn]

Yeah but here's the thing, I don't remember Tyrion being unlikeable at this point in the novels. If I remember my experience of reading the books (twice), at this point he was a "good guy" who hadn't really done anything despicable yet, and he didn't really start to become the way people say he ought to be until A Dance with Dragons.

Tyrion was definitely not a "good guy" at this point in the novels. He had a singer murdered, broke Marillion's fingers, threatened to rape Tommen, put Alayaya's life in danger, physically assaulted Shae, believed that Masha Heddle (the owner of the inn where Catelyn kidnapped him) deserved her death, and was an active participant in Tysha's rape.

Also just because Blackfish isn't very nice to Edmure doesn't make him a thug, and Loras isn't a gay stereotype even though people here love to claim he is.

It's easy to say "Loras isn't a gay stereotype" but... where is your evidence? All I see in the show is a character who can barely hold a conversation with a girl, knows about (women's) fashion, jumps into bed with the first gay guy he meets, etc. Those are all (negative and incorrect) gay stereotypes.

Each scene with the Blackfish and Edmure has shown him being rude, abrupt and/or violent. That makes him a thug.

[Honourable Ser]

It's easy to say "Loras isn't a gay stereotype" but... where is your evidence? All I see in the show is a character who can barely hold a conversation with a girl, knows about (women's) fashion, jumps into bed with the first gay guy he meets, etc. Those are all (negative and incorrect) gay stereotypes.

I thought the gay stereotype was the standard 'gay best friend' where all they do is talk to their girlfriends? As for jumping into bed with a man, I'm pretty sure all the heterosexual characters do this at some point (i.e. all the time)! And women's fashion? So what, he mentioned that she'd wear a nice gown. Shit, anyone can say that!

So climb down off of your high horse as best you can, try not fall over your imbalanced ego on the way down and I'm sure you'll be fine. :-)

[Masamune]

You'd think they'd be more mindful of modern day sensibilities when it comes to portraying homosexuals in such an offensive, one-dimensional manner, but alas not. Just like Renly in S1. In the books, he's a dashing playboy and a capable tournie fighter, who just happens to be gay. Enter the show, and Renly's an effete pansy who winces at the sight of blood and needs Loras to go down on him before he believes he can take the throne. Yikes.

[Mars M.]

It's easy to say "Loras isn't a gay stereotype" but... where is your evidence? All I see in the show is a character who can barely hold a conversation with a girl, knows about (women's) fashion, jumps into bed with the first gay guy he meets, etc. Those are all (negative and incorrect) gay stereotypes.

I might agree if that was all that we've seen Loras do, but it isn't. And I saw his recent scenes much differently. Instead of Loras not being able to hold a conversation with a girl, he just really didn't want to discuss the wedding and started rambling in a distracted manner about the pin/broach. Sansa is seeing their marriage as a dream come true and a chance for a much happier life, but for Loras it's a very different situation. And the scene of him jumping into bed made sense to me because he's: 1) mourning Renly and 2) not expecting to find another lover any time soon because of his sexuality. It's not as simple as him wanting sex because he's gay.

[Khal Porno]

Tyrion was definitely not a "good guy" at this point in the novels. He had a singer murdered, broke Marillion's fingers, threatened to rape Tommen, put Alayaya's life in danger, physically assaulted Shae, believed that Masha Heddle (the owner of the inn where Catelyn kidnapped him) deserved her death, and was an active participant in Tysha's rape.

It's easy to say "Loras isn't a gay stereotype" but... where is your evidence? All I see in the show is a character who can barely hold a conversation with a girl, knows about (women's) fashion, jumps into bed with the first gay guy he meets, etc. Those are all (negative and incorrect) gay stereotypes.

This is an exaggeration of how that conversation went, and I hardly think those things are negative or stereotypes. I know plenty of gay people, and yes many of them do like fashion and things like that. So what? How is that a stereotype if it's something that occurs and is in fact common (and not in any way negative)? Loras has also been shown to be fairly masculine, so I don't see how showing he is interested in the trappings of his wedding is a bad thing. If I recall correctly, Loras and Renly in the books were even more into stuff like that.

And I don't think having sex with someone is a negative, and I don't think it was portrayed negatively. Contrast this scene with Theon having sex with the Captain's daughter in season 2 in which he was just using her. THAT was negative. Would you complain that it is stereotyping straight men as always wanting sex and not caring about a woman's feelings?

If he were walking around swaying his hips, talking with a lisp, and doing that thing with his hand (whatever that's called) then I would agree with you that it would be a stereotype.

Edited May 8, 2013 by The Duke of J-Town

[Khal Porno]

You'd think they'd be more mindful of modern day sensibilities when it comes to portraying homosexuals in such an offensive, one-dimensional manner, but alas not. Just like Renly in S1. In the books, he's a dashing playboy and a capable tournie fighter, who just happens to be gay. Enter the show, and Renly's an effete pansy who winces at the sight of blood and needs Loras to go down on him before he believes he can take the throne. Yikes.

You must hate the Logo network.

And I would hardly call Renly on the show "an effete pansy."

[Ser Steven]

Someone further back in the thread said that LF had everyone believing he left KL long before he actually did, which is why he was able to smuggle out Sansa. I cannot remember if this is true or not, but if it is, then my guess is that the sailing ship with the mockingbird sail is meant to convince KL that LF left for the Eyrie.

In the book LF leaves for the Vale to set up the marriage with Lysa, comes back for Sansa, and then goes to the Vale to get married.