[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

[Demandred]

I'm fairly sure Littlefinger doesn't leave for the Vale and come back. He stays close to King's Landing, waits for the wedding and then takes Sansa away in the ensuing chaos.

[jmk51]

I agree, but to a certain degree I think all of the characters are suffering from such alterations. Some are being whitewashed and some are being darkened. The characters are diminished by this and made considerably less...challenging. I truly enjoy the show...for what it is. Unfortunately, the lack of nuance and subtlety in the show's character development does not allow viewers the freedom to interpret the characters. As troubling as the "re-imagining" of major characters can be, I find the problems particularly prevalent with the characters for whom we have no PoV in the books. I feel we are forced to swallow the show writers' interpretation of these characters, where in the books we have a great deal of freedom to view the characters in a myriad of ways.

The overt absolution of Cersei for the Bastard Hunt and the attempt on Tyrion's life serves to coddle the audience by providing easy answers without having to engage their minds. When left ambiguous, as in the books, the viewer is given freedom to speculate about who took the actions and what the motives may have been. This provides each reader with a sliding scale of morality and righteousness and leads to wildly differing opinions on who and what the characters are...to which anyone who frequents these boards can attest. :)

As much as I enjoy the show...and I do...I barely recognize these characters in their altered and simplified forms. Heh...Guess I will just have to start a reread as a pallet cleanser. :)

Not to be trite, but I think you missed the "nuance" in the bolded part.... she never said anything, Tyrion apparently took her silence as acknowledgement of it being Joffrey's idea.

[madprofessah]

could they even show a castration? the only time i've ever seen a castration on tv it was shown sort of off screen and the guy was just shown afterward crumpled on the ground.

Is Reek castrated? I don't remember that detail. We've already seen Alfie's junk in S1 but I wouldn't object to a reprise :drool:

Put me in the group that votes for seeing less of the destruction of Theon. In the grand scheme of the GAME OF THRONES, how is Theon an important player? I'd rather see more time spent on several other topics or storylines. For example, more time on depicting the various religions (I think the producers really have not done due justice to The Seven, in my view. Although it must be stipulated that the art direction has done a very impressive job. This can be seen from the large number of times the 7-star motif appears in Kings Landing and the statues inside High Sept itself were absolutely stunning.)

[Khal Porno]

Is Reek castrated? I don't remember that detail. We've already seen Alfie's junk in S1 but I wouldn't object to a reprise :drool:

Come on man, in the context of his dick being cut off?? Hahaha I can't imagine that being appealing. And it's implied in the books that willy's been snipped, but I'm really hoping that doesn't happen in the show.

[Fishb4hjoker]

I wonder will they re-cast Tommen? I bet half of audience have already forgot him :( I think they should make Tommen appear so audience can see diffrence between Tommen and Joffrey.

[elur]

Blue eye = Crow's Eye = Euron

Edited May 8, 2013 by elur

[laughing tree knight]

my biggest take aways from the episode. I think the scene where Mel learns of breathing fire back into people is to set up Jon Snow return. I think it's tv insight that's not in the books unless Mel is also Ghost of High Hearth.

[Winterfelon]

At this point, I'm actually finding the show is working much better as a bit of TV.

The first (two) series were by and large so faithful to the books, that they almost functioned as a companion piece rather than a show in its own right. Kind of like the books, but with all the good bits taken out!

However, that said there is good and bad:

I'd agree we don't need any more Theon torture, but that story line has to be kept alive as otherwise he'd most probably turn up in two seasons' time, recast and you'd lose the whole thread.

Also, some strands are going to translate well to TV, some aren't. And some will have to change given the end game and the time scales involved.

The Jaime and Brienne 'Br-omance' is TV gold. But TV knows how to do that. The really long arcs - outside of soap opera - it struggles with. I'd argue Doctor Who has this issue atm, but I digress.

Tyrion is good as ever - there is ample time to show his complexity.

The Blackfish - casting-wise - is almost spot on for me apart from being a bit tall. From my recollection he was always a 'hearty' individual, so giving Edmure a bit of stick isn't totally beyond the pale.

Edmure - that actor is a good actor, but he always ends up playing bad guys or arseholes. I think he's miscast as Edmure. I also don't agree with those who say Edmure's a sympathetic character here. He screwed up too, so there's issues on both sides.

Also, I think the RW's impact will be diminished as something's off with how Robb has been handled this year. I don't get the sense of him being the 'good' guy. But I guess there's still time.

The Ygritte thing is - in my view - the biggest misstep/deviation. As Ran said in his excellent review, it's cliche but it's also implausible given the stakes and also how Ygritte has been set up in both books and show. Bad D&D.

The Reeds/Bran - all good in my book.

Dennis Pennis (Thoros!) is quality, but I do take the point about the shift from the books, but makes sense the other prince is someone we know rather than some random. It's also an essential part that - from the books - no one is perfect,. No one is immune to the filth and everyone has a pay master - even the BWB. Sad, but true.

EDIT:

Also - on Tyrion becoming a 'good' guy. Given what he ends up doing to Tywin, I think it makes sense he is a bit more sympathetic.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Winterfelon

[boojam]

Come on man, in the context of his dick being cut off?? Hahaha I can't imagine that being appealing. And it's implied in the books that willy's been snipped, but I'm really hoping that doesn't happen in the show.

Implied in the books?

I don't remember that, or don't know of a passage where it's spelled out.

Or even implied.

George does go for hyperbole 'root and stem' , which I take to mean both orchiectomy and penectomy , from what I know of ancient times it mostly orchiectomy if one left the victim alive.

O well it is an alternate universe.

Edited May 8, 2013 by boojam

[Winterfelon]

Implied in the books?

I don't remember that, or don't know of a passage where it's spelled out.

Or even implied.

George does go for hyperbole 'root and stem' , which I take to mean both orchiectomy and penectomy , from what I know of ancient times it mostly orchiectomy if one left the victim alive.

O well it is an alternate universe.

There is one line I think where Theon looks at a woman and thinks 'those days were all over now' or similar, but it's never explicitly stated which is why we all wonder. :)

[RottenAppleFossoway]

Poor Ros

I was hoping she would stick around. And we didn't need to see that.

I hope they use it at least

Perhaps Olenna agreed to the marriage but will now find out through Varys and want Loras on the kings guard to protect Margery while PW plans are put in place ?

Regarding Ros, I would not be surprised in the least if her gruesome demise is the catalyst (as if there aren't enough already) for Tywin dressing down Joffrey, confiscating his crossbow, which will later on be found in his bedchamber by Tyrion...

I'd put money on that crossbow being the one

[Winterfelon]

Regarding Ros, I would not be surprised in the least if her gruesome demise is the catalyst (as if there aren't enough already) for Tywin dressing down Joffrey, confiscating his crossbow, which will later on be found in his bedchamber by Tyrion...

I'd put money on that crossbow being the one

Great shout. :cool:

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Tyrion was definitely not a "good guy" at this point in the novels.

This illustrates an inherent problem in these discussions -- there is/was strong disagreement about these characters even as they were presented in the books. People interpret different scenes differently, or find behaviors more excusable (or more blameworthy) for various reasons than others might. Since it is impossible to replicate all the nuances and subtleties of a 900 page book on TV, the TV writers are inherently going to have to omit some of that, and instead go for a portrayal that captures what they see as the key personality traits of each character, and script events consistent with that vision. And because we don't all agree even on the book portrayals, it's inevitable that no matter what they do, someone is going to be accusing them of inconsistencies.

Things they omit that some believe are critical, are things others will find unimportant.

For example, I still consider Tyrion a good guy at this point in the context of Westeros, and in the context of having been raised in hate by his father and sister. Yet, I recall book debates where people disagreed very strongly about whether he deserved credit or blame for his approach to Sansa's wedding. So of course, people are going to disagree about that here as well.

That's why all the "they ruined 'x'" stuff strikes me as way over the top. Just because the portrayal doesn't match how you envisioned the character doesn't mean it's wrong, because that presentation may well be consistent with how others interpreted the characters in the books.

It's easy to say "Loras isn't a gay stereotype" but... where is your evidence? All I see in the show is a character who can barely hold a conversation with a girl, knows about (women's) fashion, jumps into bed with the first gay guy he meets, etc. Those are all (negative and incorrect) gay stereotypes.

Martin presents him as something of a stereotype, though. Renly is described as the "weak steel". Loras isn't a bruiser, or even of average build or strength. He's slender, quick, long golden hair, beautiful...a gay stereotype. He rides a mare rather than a stallion. He's known as the Knight of Flowers and a member of the "Rainbow Guard". He's not portrayed as just an average knight who happens to be gay.

Each scene with the Blackfish and Edmure has shown him being rude, abrupt and/or violent. That makes him a thug.

Again, this is another place where views can differ. To me at least, a "thug" is someone who is dim-witted, and capable of nothing other than physical brutality. I don't think that's been established.

[Winterfelon]

Blackfish

Again, this is another place where views can differ. To me at least, a "thug" is someone who is dim-witted, and capable of nothing other than physical brutality. I don't think that's been established.

Quite.

I count three significant scenes with him so far (Funeral, Cat, Freys). Only in the last of these is he an out and out 'brute'. But given the character's book history, perhaps he knows the folly of not marrying when compelled (as now does Robb) and this is all being brought to bear?

It could, perhaps, have been handled with a bit more finesse from a writing point of view, but we need to see a fighting fish given what happens later in the books.

I think it's perfect casting again and that the fish is far from ruined!

[Ran]

Martin presents him as something of a stereotype, though.

No he doesn't.

Renly is described as the "weak steel".

He has a character who last knew Renly when he was 6 years old call him "copper", not "weak steel". Doesn't have anything to do with Loras, though.

Loras isn't a bruiser

So if you're not a bruiser, you're falling into a gay male stereotype... ?

or even of average build or strength.

You know, nothing says he's weak or "below average" in strength, and everything points against it. He may well be stronger than bigger men with less training and natural gifts for it. (I always imagined him as having a wiry strength, more of a "fast twitch" muscle than "slow twitch" kind of guy. I keep thinking of Eric Davis, who would have gone 40-40 in '87 if he hadn't missed a big chunk of the season.)

He's slender, quick, long golden hair, beautiful

This sounds like young Jaime Lannister, or Rhaegar Targaryen....

In fact, Loras has curling brown hair.

...a gay stereotype.

I never knew being good looking, lean, and having long hair made you any kind of stereotype at all.

He rides a mare rather than a stallion.

Once ever, so far as we know, as a trick to make sure he beat Gregor Clegane.

He's known as the Knight of Flowers

His family arms feature a flower, his family seat is associated with them, and in the world of Westeros, there's nothing remotely stereotypical about being associated with flowers. Well, maybe "Typical Tyrell". Leo Longthorn, the Queen of Thorns... they all get associated with flowers, one way or another, if they're of any note.

and a member of the "Rainbow Guard"

Which Martin has noted was never named as a reference to the rainbow emblem of the LGBT movement, and came purely from the fact that Renly loved pageantry and he had established that rainbows are an emblem of the Faith.

He's not portrayed as just an average knight who happens to be gay.

He's portrayed as a legendary knight who half the maids in the realm want to marry and all the boys want to be like, the sort of young man Robert himself said a man would be proud to call a son... and who also happens to be gay.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Ran

[The Mondrian Oak]

No he doesn't.

He has a character who last knew Renly when he was 6 years old call him "copper", not "weak steel". Doesn't have anything to do with Loras, though.

So if you're not a bruiser, you're falling into a gay male stereotype... ?

You know, nothing says he's weak or "below average" in strength, and everything points against it. He may well be stronger than bigger men with less training and natural gifts for it. (I always imagined him as having a wiry strength, more of a "fast twitch" muscle than "slow twitch" kind of guy. I keep thinking of Eric Davis, who would have gone 40-40 in '87 if he hadn't missed a big chunk of the season.)

This sounds like young Jaime Lannister, or Rhaegar Targaryen....

In fact, Loras has curling brown hair.

I never knew being good looking, lean, and having long hair made you any kind of stereotype at all.

Once ever, so far as we know, as a trick to make sure he beat Gregor Clegane.

His family arms feature a flower, his family seat is associated with them, and in the world of Westeros, there's nothing remotely stereotypical about being associated with flowers.

Which Martin has noted was never named as a reference to the rainbow emblem of the LGBT movement, and came purely from the fact that Renly loved pageantry and he had established that rainbows are an emblem of the Faith.

He's portrayed as a legendary knight who half the maids in the realm want to marry and all the boys want to be like, the sort of young man Robert himself said a man would be proud to call a son... and who also happens to be gay.

It looks like you're defending every ambiguous choice GRRM has made, because "it's in the books", and therefore flawless, while you're condemning every ambiguous choice the show has made, because "it's the show", and therefore a mess. If you call a knight "Knight of flowers", describe him like a fair lad, make him ride a mare, and make him join the "Rainbow guard", it's no better that making him have occasional sex with someone (which is something almost every person has done in their life, regardless of their sexual orientation) and make him say he always dreamt of a beautifully dressed wife (even if he was lying). No offense meant, but this is intellectual dishonesty.

Edited May 8, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak

[Ran]

Possibly I'm still too ill, but what you're saying is quite impossible for me to figure out. I don't understand where Martin was supposed to be ambiguous.

Rhaegar was a fair lad. Jaime was a fair lad. This makes them gay?

Are all the Tyrells gay because they have roses on their arms and they live in Highgarden?

Riding a mare makes you gay? Is the Faith gay, because the rainbow is an important emblem?

Is Littlefinger gay, because he dresses well?

I mean, color me very thoroughly confused. I don't see the ambiguities. There's no ambiguity that Loras Tyrell is gay. But it has nothing to do with his having used a mare once, because he was a member of the Rainbow Guard, because he's good looking, because he's associated with flowers. It's because, uh, he's gay.

Whereas the show has failed to actually indicate that he misses Renly or that Renly's death has had any lingering effect on him this season -- despite the writer of "Kissed by Fire" saying that that was the impression they wanted to give -- and has made him incapable of holding a conversation with a young lady unless he distract himself with talking about details of her wedding gown and the fine point of difference between a broach and a pin. These are their choices. Their characterization of him in the aired episodes is pretty clear.

Can they change things around with the last four episodes, and provide something more to the character to re-establish the connection to Renly and so on? Maybe they will, but I'm dubious. Not least because it's really three episodes, since I suspect episode 9 will be focused solely around the Twins.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Ran

[The Mondrian Oak]

Possibly I'm still too ill, but what you're saying is quite impossible for me to figure out. I don't understand where Martin was supposed to be ambiguous.

Rhaegar was a fair lad. Jaime was a fair lad. This makes them gay?

Are all the Tyrells gay because they have roses on their arms and they live in Highgarden?

Riding a mare makes you gay? Is the Faith gay, because the rainbow is an important emblem?

Is Littlefinger gay, because he dresses well?

I mean, color me very thoroughly confused. I don't see the ambiguities. There's no ambiguity that Loras Tyrell is gay. But it has nothing to do with his having used a mare once, because he was a member of the Rainbow Guard, because he's good looking, because he's associated with flowers. It's because, uh, he's gay.

Whereas the show has failed to actually indicate that he misses Renly or that Renly's death has had any lingering effect on him this season -- despite the writer of "Kissed by Fire" saying that that was the impression they wanted to give -- and has made him incapable of holding a conversation with a young lady unless he distract himself with talking about details of her wedding gown and the fine point of difference between a broach and a pin.

Yet people say Loras is a gay stereotype in the show because he knows about clothes and shags a person he just met. Colour me more confused than you are.

[Linda]

It looks like you're defending every ambiguous choice GRRM has made, because "it's in the books", and therefore flawless, while you're condemning every ambiguous choice the show has made, because "it's the show", and therefore a mess. If you call a knight "Knight of flowers", describe him like a fair lad, make him ride a mare, and make him join the "Rainbow guard", it's no better that making him have occasional sex with someone (which is something almost every person has done in their life, regardless of their sexual orientation) and make him say he always dreamt of a beautifully dressed wife (even if he was lying). No offense meant, but this is intellectual dishonesty.

What exactly is ambiguous about the characterisation of Loras in the books? There's no comparison between the two things you're trying to compare. Loras, in the books, is one half of a tragic romance, though one you really only learn about after the fact (which is part of what makes it sad; Martin often reveals such things after the fact, making you re-evaluate a character). What's stereotypical about that?

On the show, they decided that this apparently wasn't interesting, at least not compared to forcing the character to act in certain idiotic ways to get a plot to work that shouldn't be working.

If the show wasn't an adaptation, I suppose the portrayal wouldn't stand out as very bad (but still, a more stereotypical depiction of a gay male than _not_ having him be happy to screw a random guy at the drop of a hat). But it is an adaptation. And compared to the source material, it is unquestionably inferior.

[The Mondrian Oak]

What exactly is ambiguous about the characterisation of Loras in the books? There's no comparison between the two things you're trying to compare. Loras, in the books, is one half of a tragic romance, though one you really only learn about after the fact (which is part of what makes it sad; Martin often reveals such things after the fact, making you re-evaluate a character). What's stereotypical about that?

On the show, they decided that this apparently wasn't interesting, at least not compared to forcing the character to act in certain idiotic ways to get a plot to work that shouldn't be working.

If the show wasn't an adaptation, I suppose the portrayal wouldn't stand out as very bad (but still, a more stereotypical depiction of a gay male than _not_ having him be happy to screw a random guy at the drop of a hat). But it is an adaptation. And compared to the source material, it is unquestionably inferior.

I agree with Loras in the show being considerably shallower than book Loras. No one is questioning that.

But, using the words of Ran:

Littlefinger knows about clothes, does that make him gay? No. Loras knows about clothes. Explain me why that works differently for him, for many posters.

Theon shags random girls, does it make him a straight sterotype? No. Loras shags a random lad. Explain me why that is a gay stereotype.

Shallower? Yes. Less tragic? Yes. A stereotype? Hell, no more than book Loras. Unless we are saying that, being Loras the only gay character in the show, he should have been portrayed better than straight characters, because, having LGBT people been bashed for too long in real life, they deserve to stand out as better than straight people in shows. I don't agree with this way of thinking, but I understand it. And respect it.

Edited May 8, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak