Former Lord of Winterfell Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) No he doesn't.Disagree. I never said he was a pure stereotype, but rather "something of a stereotype" in terms of there being some stereotyped elements.He has a character who last knew Renly when he was 6 years old call him "copper", not "weak steel". Doesn't have anything to do with Loras, though.But it does fit in with gay stereotyping in general. The gay brother happens to be the weakest.So if you're not a bruiser, you're falling into a gay male stereotype... ?It's not just that he's not a bruiser. He's described as "beautiful", which is generally not a masculine descriptor. He's a lithe, slender, beautiful male...you don't think that image fits a gay stereotype? Not that every such person is gay, but really -- you don't think that fits a stereotype? Not to mention the "Knight of Flowers" and "Rainbow Guard". Sure, that's his House, etc.., but then, we're talking about a fictional construct where the associations are made by the author. Did the gay knight have to be from the House with flowers as it's sigil, and known as the "knight of flowers?"I never knew being good looking, lean, and having long hair made you any kind of stereotype at all.You're changing the words to lessen the connotation. Again, he's described as "beautiful", not "good-looking". To put it differently, can you think of any knight who is described in a less traditionally masculine fashion than Ser Loras? I can't. Jaime, who is also exceptionally attractive, is still not described as having the kind of slight, boyish build attributed to Loras. Nor is Rhaegar.Which Martin has noted was never named as a reference to the rainbow emblem of the LGBT movement, and came purely from the fact that Renly loved pageantry and he had established that rainbows are an emblem of the Faith.The connotation exists whether intended or not.I don't think he was written as just a gay stereotype. But I'll stand by the statement that his physical description is one that does fit into a certain "pretty boy" stereotype. He certainly doesn't have Jorah Mormont's back hair..... Edited May 8, 2013 by Former Lord of Winterfell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 A lot of straight men are described as beautiful in the series including Rheagar and Jamie, so Loras' looks I don't think is a reasonable criticism, neither is him coming from House Tyrell.I would say that the show having him prattle on about women's sleeves and fabric and having him fall into bed with a total stranger is veering into gay stereotyping and I'm not sure why they went there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) Rhaegar was a fair lad. Jaime was a fair lad. This makes them gay?No, Ran, and nobody is saying that. But who's the fairest (as well as lithe and slender) of them all, and why is that guy the one who is gay?Whereas the show has failed to actually indicate that he misses Renly or that Renly's death has had any lingering effect on him this season -- despite the writer of "Kissed by Fire" saying that that was the impression they wanted to give -- and has made him incapable of holding a conversation with a young lady unless he distract himself with talking about details of her wedding gown and the fine point of difference between a broach and a pin. These are their choices. Their characterization of him in the aired episodes is pretty clear.I agree this is a different stereotype. Just because he was (I believe) presented as something of a physical stereotype in the books doesn't justify changes to his character in the show. Edited May 8, 2013 by Former Lord of Winterfell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mondrian Oak Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) A lot of straight men are described as beautiful in the series including Rheagar and Jamie, so Loras' looks I don't think is a reasonable criticism, neither is him coming from House Tyrell.I would say that the show having him prattle on about women's sleeves and fabric and having him fall into bed with a total stranger is veering into gay stereotyping and I'm not sure why they went there.I will never understand why having occasional sex or knowing about clothes is a "gay stereotype". The former is utter madness. Loras is shallower and less interesting than in the book, YES. That is the only unquestionable truth. Edited May 8, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 99% of characters on television are straight. Any attempt to derail the argument by discussing the presentation of straight characters is just offensive and insulting.Loras is a walking stereotype on the show. In the books he had some stereotypically gay traits, but there was always more to him than that. He felt like a real person. You'd never find any book reader referring to Loras as the "gay knight". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honourable Ser Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 99% of characters on television are straight. Any attempt to derail the argument by discussing the presentation of straight characters is just offensive and insulting.Loras is a walking stereotype on the show. In the books he had some stereotypically gay traits, but there was always more to him than that. He felt like a real person. You'd never find any book reader referring to Loras as the "gay knight".99% of characters on television are straight. Any attempt to derail the argument by discussing the presentation of straight characters is just offensive and insulting.Loras is a walking stereotype on the show. In the books he had some stereotypically gay traits, but there was always more to him than that. He felt like a real person. You'd never find any book reader referring to Loras as the "gay knight".Loras is a great fighter, we've seen that. Not exactly the gay stereotype is it? Any attempt to derail the show by discussing the presentation of gay characters is just offensive and insulting to the job the writers are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Loras is a great fighter, we've seen that. Not exactly the gay stereotype is it? Any attempt to derail the show by discussing the presentation of gay characters is just offensive and insulting to the job the writers are doing.We haven't seen that Loras is a great fighter. We saw him being beaten by Gregor Clegane, and we saw him beaten by Brienne of Tarth.Yeah, discussing their homophobic portrayal of characters is certainly derailing. If you're not interested in discussing why the show's portrayal of gay characters has been so deeply problematic, stop reading my posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mondrian Oak Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) I will never understand why having occasional sex or knowing about clothes is a "gay stereotype". The former is utter madness. Loras is shallower and less interesting than in the book, YES. That is the only unquestionable truth.99% of characters on television are straight. Any attempt to derail the argument by discussing the presentation of straight characters is just offensive and insulting.Loras is a walking stereotype on the show. In the books he had some stereotypically gay traits, but there was always more to him than that. He felt like a real person. You'd never find any book reader referring to Loras as the "gay knight".I really don't want to offend you in any way, Patrick. I know this is a very delicate topic, and I am no gay man, so I cannot fully understand what it means to be bashed only for being true to one's identity.I'll just tell you that a very close relative of mine is gay. He was offended as you are now by the fact that Loras rided a mare. He said "What, gay men are too weak to mount stallions?". Now, of course it was a plot device. But, like it or not, it's the same thing as him having sex with that lad. A plot device. You may think it's a stupid one, yet it still is one. And I know many book readers who call Loras "the gay knight".But of course, this is just my point of view. Edited May 8, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honourable Ser Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) We haven't seen that Loras is a great fighter. We saw him being beaten by Gregor Clegane, and we saw him beaten by Brienne of Tarth.Yeah, discussing their homophobic portrayal of characters is certainly derailing. If you're not interested in discussing why the show's portrayal of gay characters has been so deeply problematic, stop reading my posts.But Brienne of Tarth is a great fighter as well and a woman to boot! I distinctly remember you complaining about the presentation of women on another thread as well, so you should have been thrilled to see that! Also, Loras beat Gregor in the joust, even if he did cheat, so he clearly has some skill and is not just an effete pansy.David and Dan are clearly not homophobic as well. The deleted scene of Loras and Maragrey in season two is probably the best example of this, it's clear to see how distraught he was over it, and it says something when this is one of the relationships that shows some feeling in it. So what if Loras fucked another man, the heterosexual characters go around fucking every girl they see (Bronn being the best example), but I don't see you complaining about them being overtly masculine. So come, come now, don't treat homosexuals and heterosexuals any differently Pat! . Edited May 8, 2013 by Honourable Ser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mondrian Oak Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 But Brienne of Tarth is a great fighter as well and a woman to boot! I distinctly remember you complaining about the presentation of women on another thread as well, so you should have been thrilled to see that! Also, Loras beat Gregor in the joust, even if he did cheat, so he clearly has some skill and is not just an effete pansy.David and Dan are clearly not homophobic as well. The deleted scene of Loras and Maragrey in season two is probably the best example of this, it's clear to see how distraught he was over it, and it says something when this is one of the relationships that shows some feeling in it. So what if Loras fucked another man, the heterosexual characters go around fucking every girl they see (Bronn being the best example), but I don't see you complaining about them being overtly masculine. So come, come now, don't treat homosexuals and heterosexuals any differently Pat! .To be honest, I would have really liked to see that deleted scene make it into the show. It would have given much more depth to Loras and his love for Renly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honourable Ser Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 To be honest, I would have really liked to see that deleted scene make it into the show. It would have given much more depth to Loras and his love for Renly!Oh I completely agree, but I guess for the sake of story progression etc. you just can't have it all! I really enjoyed the Varys/Littlefinger scene that was cut from season two as well. Beginning to love the Iron Throne rendevous that should be a staple of each season! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelmyMore Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Am I totally backwards, or was the sun rising from the wrong direction at the end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mondrian Oak Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) Oh I completely agree, but I guess for the sake of story progression etc. you just can't have it all! I really enjoyed the Varys/Littlefinger scene that was cut from season two as well. Beginning to love the Iron Throne rendevous that should be a staple of each season!It would have also helped non readers understand that Loras was wearing Renly's armor during the battle at Blackwater. Yes, that was a missed oppurtunity.On a more positive note, this episode's rendevous between LF and Varys and the chaos speech were unbelievable! Edited May 8, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 99% of characters on television are straight. Any attempt to derail the argument by discussing the presentation of straight characters is just offensive and insulting.That may have been true 10 years ago, but I don't think it is true anymore. Loras is a walking stereotype on the show. In the books he had some stereotypically gay traits, but there was always more to him than that. He felt like a real person. You'd never find any book reader referring to Loras as the "gay knight".Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honourable Ser Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 It would have also helped non readers understand that Loras was wearing Renly's armor during the battle at Blackwater. Yes, that was a missed oppurtunity.On a more positive note, this episode's rendevous between LF and Varys and the chaos speech were unbelievable!Reinforced why I love Aidan Gillen! I get that some people don't like hiw theatrical his villain is, but there's something very Machiavellian and Shakespearian about his performance that I just love. He always reminds me of Kenneth Branagh as Iago in 'Othello'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 The fact that Renly and Loras were gay was only hinted at in the books, there was nothing close to the outright relationship depicted in the show. That said, once they decided to include the relationship and make Renly's homosexuality a part of the show I thought they missed a huge opportunity with his character to explore how that element of his nature helped him generate those 100,000 allies....how being an outsider on the inside allowed him to relate to people in a different way, to the highboard, to the peasants, etc., which was an aspect of Book Renly that never made it to the show and I thought this could have been a great addition to the depth of his TV characterization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Reinforced why I love Aidan Gillen! I get that some people don't like hiw theatrical his villain is, but there's something very Machiavellian and Shakespearian about his performance that I just love. He always reminds me of Kenneth Branagh as Iago in 'Othello'.The odd thing is that his hair bugs the hell out of me. It looks like something you'd see from Best Cuts, a typical "neat part of the right". It just looks too modern for me, and it throws me off visually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mondrian Oak Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Reinforced why I love Aidan Gillen! I get that some people don't like hiw theatrical his villain is, but there's something very Machiavellian and Shakespearian about his performance that I just love. He always reminds me of Kenneth Branagh as Iago in 'Othello'.I love show Littlefinger as much as you do. His new found raspy voice being a further enhancement. He has a unique evil charisma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 I love show Littlefinger as much as you do. His new found raspy voice being a further enhancement. He has a unique evil charisma.To each his own I guess, I feel like he is acting in a different program than everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mondrian Oak Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) To each his own I guess, I feel like he is acting in a different program than everyone else.Ahah yes, everyone has their flaws. All hail Lord Twat Beard! I feel like rewatching the chaos speech right now. Edited May 8, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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