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[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion


Ran
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Nonsense. It is as much as it is for homosexuals. People shag, regardless of their sexual orientation, full stop.

Yes, but for straights it's not a stereotype, thus there's nothing to get butt hurt about. Because there is a supposed stereotype concerning gay sex, D&D isn't allowed to touch the double standard.

I personally don't swim in these waters of stupidity, since it's all so inconsistent. Just that being offended isn't that big of a deal; PC nazis want to think/act differently, but being offended should be celebrated in a free society with free speech and not hated.

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Yes, but for straights it's not a stereotype, thus there's nothing to get butt hurt about. Because there is a supposed stereotype concerning gay sex, D&D isn't allowed to touch the double standard.

I personally don't swim in these waters of stupidity, since it's all so inconsistent. Just that being offended isn't that big of a deal; PC nazis want to think/act differently, but being offended should be celebrated in a free society with free speech and not hated.

I'm not really sure of what you mean with your last paragraph, but fine, I'm dropping this discussion too.

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Yes, but for straights it's not a stereotype, thus there's nothing to get butt hurt about. Because there is a supposed stereotype concerning gay sex, D&D isn't allowed to touch the double standard.

I personally don't swim in these waters of stupidity, since it's all so inconsistent. Just that being offended isn't that big of a deal; PC nazis want to think/act differently, but being offended should be celebrated in a free society with free speech and not hated.

Actually there's an even bigger "stereotype" that MEN in general are promiscuous (and we see this reinforced countless times throughout Game of Thrones and Ice & Fire). I've yet to meet a straight man who's complained about this stereotype though.

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Yeah but here's the thing, I don't remember Tyrion being unlikeable at this point in the novels. If I remember my experience of reading the books (twice), at this point he was a "good guy" who hadn't really done anything despicable yet, and he didn't really start to become the way people say he ought to be until A Dance with Dragons.

First of all, Tyrion is one of my favorite charcters, and I still love him after ADwD. Everybody hated his chapters in ADwD, but I really enjoyed them.

At this point of the story, Tyrion is still a "good guy", but at this point he also starts going downhill. Tyrion was always considered a "good guy", but he always had a "dark side", too. This "dark side" is exactly why he bacame one of my favorite characters in the first place.

I read the books before watching the show, so this was my reaction to Tyrion when I first read the books:

AGoT:

Then he saw the other one, waddling along half-hidden by his brother's side. Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin's brood and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute's squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white. Jon watched him with fascination.

Me:

hmmmm, a dwarf? This is going to be interesting. I'll be paying attention to this guy.

AGoT:

"Let me give you some counsel, bastard," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."

Me: Oh, I really like this guy.

AGoT:

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

Me:

Wow, this is not just a poor little dwarf fitghting in the wrong side. This guy is grey, he is actually quite dark. I LOVE TYRION!

Show Tyrion never:

- Said he imagined his father and sister burning when he was a kid.

- Broke Marilion's fingers.

- Said he participated in Tysha's rape.

- Slapped Shae.

- Gave the antler men to Joff so he could throw them in a trebuchet.

- Poisoned Cersei.

- Burned everything outside of the Mud Gate.

- Threatened to rape Tommen.

- Killed Symon Silver Tongue (well this hasn't happened yet, but I doubt it will)

- Was convinced into marrying Sansa, and actually saw it as a benefit for himself. (we was forced, never saw it as a benefit, and heck he even told her about it)

This doesn't make Tyrion a "bad guy", but it does make him a grey character. It adds depth to the character and makes him more interesting. Show Tyrion has been "whitewashed". He has become only a witty comic relief and Ned 2.0. I personally don't like it. I like flawed characters. I liked Ned, but he was never one of my favorites and I never loved him because he was too honorable and too "white" for me (that's just personally of course). I don't want a Ned 2.0, a honorable, shining armor knight in the size of a dwarf that is fighting in the wrong side. I want to see the morally ambiguous, grey, and flawed character that Tyrion is in the books. I just don't even find show Tyrion interesting.

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Nonsense. It is as much as it is for homosexuals. People shag, regardless of their sexual orientation, full stop.

Once again you demonstrate your ignorance on this topic - maybe it's time to stop posting about something you clearly know nothing about?

LGBTQ is an oppressed minority group. There are stereotypes about each one; for gay men the stereotypes include being effeminate (Show!Loras is effeminate), promiscuous (Show!Loras is promiscuous), etc. Stereotypes of an oppressed minority are harmful.

Making Loras interested in fashion in the show is certainly offensive, but it wouldn't be too bad if 1) he was given other characteristics, and 2) he hadn't been changed so radically from the book character. Making him promiscuous is offensive regardless of those.

But the show is also offensive in its erasure of gay characters and use of homosexuality as a joke. In the show, the effeminate gay Xaro Xhoan Daxos was turned into a masculine straight character, whilst the masculine gay Renly Baratheon was turned into an effeminate gay character. This is very offensive, for what I consider to be quite obvious reasons.

I doubt Oberyn's bisexuality will be left in tact either.

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Once again you demonstrate your ignorance on this topic - maybe it's time to stop posting about something you clearly know nothing about?

LGBTQ is an oppressed minority group. There are stereotypes about each one; for gay men the stereotypes include being effeminate (Show!Loras is effeminate), promiscuous (Show!Loras is promiscuous), etc. Stereotypes of an oppressed minority are harmful.

Making Loras interested in fashion in the show is certainly offensive, but it wouldn't be too bad if 1) he was given other characteristics, and 2) he hadn't been changed so radically from the book character. Making him promiscuous is offensive regardless of those.

But the show is also offensive in its erasure of gay characters and use of homosexuality as a joke. In the show, the effeminate gay Xaro Xhoan Daxos was turned into a masculine straight character, whilst the masculine gay Renly Baratheon was turned into an effeminate gay character. This is very offensive, for what I consider to be quite obvious reasons.

I doubt Oberyn's bisexuality will be left in tact either.

I perfectly know what I'm talking about, it is you who can't and don't know whether I do or not. Anyway, I'm no longer interested in this discussion.

Edited by The Mondrian Oak
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@patrickstormborn I think you are right, it is offensive. Not necessarily to the gay community but certainly to the characters of the novels. I know I know, the show is the show and the books are the books. Regardless, GRRM wrote them one way and now that others are involved in the creation of an adaptation of the books it clear that two straight men (D&D) with stereotypical views of homosexuality have added their visions of what the characters should be. I've often thought that GRRM did well creating an undefined orientation of sexuality as so many characters either partake in bisexual tendencies or propose/think and talk about them.

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for gay men the stereotypes include being effeminate (Show!Loras is effeminate), promiscuous (Show!Loras is promiscuous), etc.

Cant disagree that he is slightly effeminate, but promiscuous? Having casual sex with one man isn't really promiscuous. If it was clear that this was a regular occurrence then that would classify as promiscuous.

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Cant disagree that he is slightly effeminate, but promiscuous? Having casual sex with one man isn't really promiscuous. If it was clear that this was a regular occurrence then that would classify as promiscuous.

He met a gay guy and in the next scene he was having sex with him. It may not be promiscuous behaviour per se but it's the sign of a promiscuous person.

I perfectly know what I'm talking about, it is you who can't and don't know whether I do or not. Anyway, I'm no longer interested in this discussion.

But... you don't know what you're talking about, from what I've seen. Trying to compare stereotypes of gay people to stereotypes of straight people is laughable and insulting.

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He met a gay guy and in the next scene he was having sex with him. It may not be promiscuous behaviour per se but it's the sign of a promiscuous person.

But... you don't know what you're talking about, from what I've seen. Trying to compare stereotypes of gay people to stereotypes of straight people is laughable and insulting.

Again, I perfectly do. But hey, feel free to laugh and be insulted. Now please, stop it, I don't want to start flames or to fill this thread with useless rabbiting.

Edited by The Mondrian Oak
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I thought the way Loras acted by sleeping with that random guy to have cheapened him, in the books Loras was defined by his love of renly and devotion to him even after death, in the show... not as much so far.

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Dont get why the discussion about all the gayness is going this far (For the record im fine with it), especially since a show that has an abundance of sex/sex scenes, there is bound to be some homosexual activities as well.

Edit:Cliff notes on this homosexual debate would be helpful

Edited by Stannis the Menace
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Cant disagree that he is slightly effeminate, but promiscuous? Having casual sex with one man isn't really promiscuous. If it was clear that this was a regular occurrence then that would classify as promiscuous.

Isn't Cersei constantly attacked for being a slut by sleeping with me who are not Jaime?

Thus, don't Loras random flings make him a man slut?

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ONE random fling.

Cersei sleeps with two people besides Jaime both at separate times, yet she is pillared for that act.

Moreover, again Loras sleeping around after Renly would be like Catelyn sleeping around after Ned.

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Moreover, again Loras sleeping around after Renly would be like Catelyn sleeping around after Ned.

Ned and Cat were married for 15-20 years depending on if we are talking books or show. Renly and loras were a thing for how long?

Cat is in at least her late 40's in the show, she's essentially done with romance. Loras is in his prime.

Basically i'm saying your comparison is garbage.

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Once again you demonstrate your ignorance on this topic - maybe it's time to stop posting about something you clearly know nothing about?

LGBTQ is an oppressed minority group. There are stereotypes about each one; for gay men the stereotypes include being effeminate (Show!Loras is effeminate), promiscuous (Show!Loras is promiscuous), etc. Stereotypes of an oppressed minority are harmful.

Making Loras interested in fashion in the show is certainly offensive, but it wouldn't be too bad if 1) he was given other characteristics, and 2) he hadn't been changed so radically from the book character. Making him promiscuous is offensive regardless of those.

But the show is also offensive in its erasure of gay characters and use of homosexuality as a joke. In the show, the effeminate gay Xaro Xhoan Daxos was turned into a masculine straight character, whilst the masculine gay Renly Baratheon was turned into an effeminate gay character. This is very offensive, for what I consider to be quite obvious reasons.

I doubt Oberyn's bisexuality will be left in tact either.

You are the one who is showing the ignorance. It's a stereotypes that all men are promiscuous. So no matter which slice of men you decide to cut out, they are still going to have the stereotype of being promiscuous. Gay, Straight, blue-eyed, browned eyed, tall, or short, all men will have that stereotype. It's should be no less offensive to call a gay man promiscuous then it is to call a straight man promiscuous. In other words, being gay doesn't make you any less of a man, therefore you will be hit with the same stereotypes as a man.

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