[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

[The Mondrian Oak]

lets introduce 10 northern lords, all of which are about to get killed off.

And let's give 10 minutes of screen time each to develop their personalities, since there's a 100% chance each one of them is someone's favourite minor character.

Edited May 10, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak

[Cas Stark]

And let's give 10 minutes of screen time each to develop the personalities, since there's a 100% chance each one of them is someone's favourite minor character.

There is kind of a sense though that there is no one at Riverrun except the Starks and the Tullys and a couple of guards, there is no real sense that he has an army anywhere, which is kind of odd, what with him fighting a war and all, no shots of the army camped around Riverrun, no other lords in his war council, if there has even been a war council, maybe they're doing it to show him as isolated, but its a bit strange.

[gmavridis]

This is taking up too much of the storyline, this Theon stuff does not need to take place so soon.

All these things happen "sooner" because unlike books time works different on TV and they cannot have a character not appearing for more than 2 or 3 episodes or for a season.

[The Mondrian Oak]

There is kind of a sense though that there is no one at Riverrun except the Starks and the Tullys and a couple of guards, there is no real sense that he has an army anywhere, which is kind of odd, what with him fighting a war and all, no shots of the army camped around Riverrun, no other lords in his war council, if there has even been a war council, maybe they're doing it to show him as isolated, but its a bit strange.

Well, we've seen how huge the northerm army was in episode 3x01 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZyaWpLT-5U, at 0.24), and then the whole army marching toward Riverrun in episode 3x03 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quhibyri_AU, at 2.05). The latter even lead to a mass complaint on these boards, since the idea of moving the entire army to Riverrun because of Hoster's funeral made Robb look like a noob. So, I think the idea that the entire northen army is in Riverrun has been well established.

And yes, I don't think any war council has been shown, as far as season 3 is concerned.

[timstanton]

i think people seriously underestimate how much harder it is on a show to flesh out characters, there is no inner monologue. especially on a show that has such a ridiculous amount of characters. i dont get how someone can be mad that loras projects some gay stereotypes...did i miss something THE GUY IS GAY. obviously some stereotypes about gay males might shine through...stereotypes(definitely not all) are often rooted in truth. the only thing i think the show hasnt done justice to is how upset loras was after renlys death, but that had nothing to do with being gay and more about love in general. also can a stereotypical gay male in real world 2013 really be held to the same standards as a fictional gay male in a fastasy world with smoke babys, dragons and whitewalkers?

[Khal Porno]

My gay friends who are interested in fashion as well as the ones who like to have sex with other men whom they aren't dating should be ashamed of themselves for perpetuating gay stereotypes.

[Greatnails]

We are not talking about your friends, who are interested in whatever they may like, but about Loras Tyrell, a character who is from the books.

GRRM didn't make Loras interested in fashion (Renly however is) and I don't think the TV show should. Gay people being interested n fashion IS a stereotype (of course anyone can like anything, thats not the point). It's not OOC (we don't know) but it's pointless. Plus Loras being the only gay character alive at this point, it will be better if he's not a living cliché. The books did well at showing different homosexual characters who were not define by their sexuality.

Same goes for the squire thing, but this time it is clearly OOC.

[Ran]

Well, to be fair, Loras Tyrell dresses fashionably. So I wouldn't say he's uninterested. But I don't think that babbling about gowns really conveys the character. His conversation with Sansa in ASoS is probably a much better depiction of the way he carries himself and conducts conversations than what they gave us in the show.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Well, to be fair, Loras Tyrell dresses fashionably. So I wouldn't say he's uninterested. But I don't think that babbling about gowns really conveys the character. His conversation with Sansa in ASoS is probably a much better depiction of the way he carries himself and conducts conversations than what they gave us in the show.

I agree, although maybe the two conversations took place in different "emotional situations"; feeling awkward with the girl you've just been told will be your wife, whom you've barely ever spoken with, whom you don't like (since you're gay) could be acceptable, at the beginning. But I think he managed to show proper manners, after that first moment of awkwardness.

Edited May 11, 2013 by The Mondrian Oak

[Daske]

We are not talking about your friends, who are interested in whatever they may like, but about Loras Tyrell, a character who is from the books.

GRRM didn't make Loras interested in fashion (Renly however is) and I don't think the TV show should. Gay people being interested n fashion IS a stereotype (of course anyone can like anything, thats not the point). It's not OOC (we don't know) but it's pointless. Plus Loras being the only gay character alive at this point, it will be better if he's not a living cliché. The books did well at showing different homosexual characters who were not define by their sexuality.

Same goes for the squire thing, but this time it is clearly OOC.

But not OOC for the TV version. It's 100% accurate in that regard.

Loras is hardly a 'living cliche' because he had casual sex with one other person and one line about clothes.

[poggo]

Well, I think that scene with Loras Tyrell was done very well.

It didnt seem to me, that he was totally a fan of dresses ect. it was more that he was trying to have a nice warm conversation with

a poor girl which he is totally not interested in. (But will soon have to marry)

For me, the actor clearly tried to experess, that he would have rather talked about the tournament, than the dresses. -> But was intelligent enough to realize, that this wouldnt be a nice topic for a little girl.

This matches perfectly with how Margaery ties to interact with Joffrey. (No, she isnt totally into tombs and crossbows either...)

[Ran]

... could be acceptable, at the beginning.

We've had three brief scenes with Loras this season. In two of those scenes he comes across as rather dumb, clumsy in his conversation, and also well over Renly.

When you have very few scenes for a minor character, it seems to me that it's essential that those scenes convey the character you want to convey. This is why the Blackfish has been consistently depicted as a tough guy, for example -- they want to make an impression that this is, well, a tough guy. With Loras, what they've conveyed this season is something rather a lot weaker, and rather a lot weaker than the character in the novel.

They could have easily handled this sort of thing. This scene could have played off more like his very first scene with Sansa, where you can tell he's not really interested but he's not sitting their in awkward silence or saying inane things, and there you go -- not particularly interested, but not a dimwit. (He's not supposed to be stupid, by the by -- I just recalled Catelyn thinking that he appeared lively and intelligent).

Edited May 11, 2013 by Ran

[The Mondrian Oak]

When you have very few scenes for a minor character, it seems to me that it's essential that those scenes convey the character you want to convey.

Well, they did that, didn't they? Only they didn't want to convey what others wanted them to convey!

[PatrickStormborn]

Well, they did that, didn't they? Only they didn't want to convey what others wanted them to convey!

They reduced him to an idiot and a gay stereotype. Considering he's the only gay character in the show (and considering the other offensive portrayals of gay characters in the past on this show), it's insulting and offensive.

[The Mondrian Oak]

They reduced him to an idiot and a gay stereotype. Considering he's the only gay character in the show (and considering the other offensive portrayals of gay characters in the past on this show), it's insulting and offensive.

I couldn't agree less, but hey, does it matter? You have every right to feel that way.

[poggo]

They reduced him to an idiot and a gay stereotype. Considering he's the only gay character in the show (and considering the other offensive portrayals of gay characters in the past on this show), it's insulting and offensive.

Well... not at all.

Sure, they didnt make him as though as some people wanted him to be.

And the part where he was stupid, just to serve the plot, was bad indeed.

But in this episode, he was neither an idiot nor a stereotype.

If you look at the character overall, it might indeed go dangeously in that direction, but its still miles away from "insulting and offensive".

[PatrickStormborn]

Well... not at all.

Sure, they didnt make him as though as some people wanted him to be.

And the part where he was stupid, just to serve the plot, was bad indeed.

But in this episode, he was neither an idiot nor a stereotype.

If you look at the character overall, it might indeed go dangeously in that direction, but its still miles away from "insulting and offensive".

1. They didn't make him as tough as GRRM intended him to be. Why not?
   
2. He was stupid in this episode too - he could barely hold a conversation with Sansa.
   

It's an insulting presentation of the only gay character in the show, which makes it pretty offensive to me when combined with the erasure of Xaro Xhoan Daxos's homosexuality and the equally insulting portrayal of Renly Baratheon.

[poggo]

1. They didn't make him as tough as GRRM intended him to be. Why not?
   
   
2. He was stupid in this episode too - he could barely hold a conversation with Sansa.
   

It's an insulting presentation of the only gay character in the show, which makes it pretty offensive to me when combined with the erasure of Xaro Xhoan Daxos's homosexuality and the equally insulting portrayal of Renly Baratheon.

1. I have to admit, that I see this as a bad decision from the showwriters too.

2. He clearly wasnt in his element. Even, if you are intelligent, you will struggle a bit in new situations.

BUT he tied to be nice and even realized what topics he should avoid, and what might be of interest for such a girl.

[Cas Stark]

1. They didn't make him as tough as GRRM intended him to be. Why not?
   
   
2. He was stupid in this episode too - he could barely hold a conversation with Sansa.
   

It's an insulting presentation of the only gay character in the show, which makes it pretty offensive to me when combined with the erasure of Xaro Xhoan Daxos's homosexuality and the equally insulting portrayal of Renly Baratheon.

What was insulting about Show Renly's portrayal? While I thought they missed an opportunity with his character having decided to show the homosexuality in a direct way, unlike in the books, I don't see what was insulting about his portrayal.

[Dove]

I don't remember show-Renly all that much so I'm curious about that too. The only strong impression he left me with was that he was generally a nicer person than his book counterpart, but more naive and less clever overall as well. (and even that could be mistaken, like I said, I barely remember his portrayal)