Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

Recommended Posts

For example, I still consider Tyrion a good guy at this point in the context of Westeros, and in the context of having been raised in hate by his father and sister. Yet, I recall book debates where people disagreed very strongly about whether he deserved credit or blame for his approach to Sansa's wedding. So of course, people are going to disagree about that here as well.

[..]

Martin presents him as something of a stereotype, though. Renly is described as the "weak steel". Loras isn't a bruiser, or even of average build or strength. He's slender, quick, long golden hair, beautiful...a gay stereotype. He rides a mare rather than a stallion. He's known as the Knight of Flowers and a member of the "Rainbow Guard". He's not portrayed as just an average knight who happens to be gay.

I would agree with you about Tyrion. Since Tywin is such an asshole and Tyrion ends up removing him from his throne ( :cool4: ) he is a hero in my eyes. Plus, from getting his POV in the books you can see he has at least some sense of compassion/empathy. I don't think we ever get a Tywin POV so maybe he does too, but his actions do not indicate he is anything but how Charles Dance portrays him: a heartless bad-ass.

As for Loras, I also agree with you that GRRM does an unfortunately un-nuanced job of portraying both of the main gay characters in the books (Renly and Loras). It's particularly problematic that Renly is killed by the spirit-monster and that Loras is horribly disfigured/burned by wildfire. (There is a long and horrid history of openly LGBT characters in books and films always coming to a "bad end" by the end of the story. The Hays Code on movies in the 1940-60s insisted that any depiction of homosexuality resulted in negative outcomes for gay characters--see The Celluloid Closet by Vito Russo for more details.) GRRM fails to counter this stereotype at all in the books.

I disagree with you somewhat in that Loras is not completely stereotypical: he is often said to be one of the top swordsmen in the Seven Realms. I actually think the actor who plays Loras on the show is doing a pretty good job. ShowLoras is more interesting than BookLoras to me and may get even more so depending on future B&B changes to his story arc (joining the Kingsguard or marrying Cersei).

Oh, and FYI, according to the GLAAD, in 2012 approximately 4.4% of television characters were LGBT, so over 95% of television characters are presumed to be straight. That's why discussing the portrayal of Loras and Renly is a reasonable topic.

Just as an aside, does anyone else think it is weird that they are not emphasizing the significance of "Wearing the White" of the Kingsguard? In the books, I always thought it was interesting and pictured it as really cool that there would be knights walking around all in white (and also thought the parallelism between the shame of "taking the black" Night's Watch and the prestige of the Kingsguard white was a brilliant stroke by GRRM.)

Edited by madprofessah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for Loras, I also agree with you that GRRM does an unfortunately un-nuanced job of portraying both of the main gay characters in the books (Renly and Loras). It's particularly problematic that Renly is killed by the spirit-monster and that Loras is horribly disfigured/burned by wildfire. (There is a long and horrid history of openly LGBT characters in books and films always coming to a "bad end" by the end of the story. The Hays Code on movies in the 1940-60s insisted that any depiction of homosexuality resulted in negative outcomes for gay characters--see The Celluloid Closet by Vito Russo for more details.) GRRM fails to counter this stereotype at all in the books.

The two gay male characters that come to my mind right now are knights and knights have a very high chance to get hurt or getting sick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(There is a long and horrid history of openly LGBT characters in books and films always coming to a "bad end" by the end of the story. The Hays Code on movies in the 1940-60s insisted that any depiction of homosexuality resulted in negative outcomes for gay characters--see The Celluloid Closet by Vito Russo for more details.) GRRM fails to counter this stereotype at all in the books.

Well, I think that's still up in the air as we know that Loras is disfigured, but we don't know that his story is otherwise over. I think it would be cool to have a no longer the pretty boy Loras essentially "bad-ass" against the Others later in the story. A nice metaphor for how the whole Kingdom will have beaten itself into the ground prior to the confrontation that really matters.

I disagree with you somewhat in that Loras is not completely stereotypical: he is often said to be one of the top swordsmen in the Seven Realms. I actually think the actor who plays Loras on the show is doing a pretty good job. ShowLoras is more interesting than BookLoras to me and may get even more so depending on future B&B changes to his story arc (joining the Kingsguard or marrying Cersei).

I do feel compelled to point out that I never said book Loras was completely stereotypical, and in fact specifically said that he was not.

Oh, and FYI, according to the GLAAD, in 2012 approximately 4.4% of television characters were LGBT, so over 95% of television characters are presumed to be straight. That's why discussing the portrayal of Loras and Renly is a reasonable topic.

The post to which I was responding said 99%. 4.4% sounds reasonable.

Edited by Former Lord of Winterfell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you seriously think 95.6% of people in the world are non-LGBTQ?

For self-reporting/identifying LGBTQ folks that's a pretty solid statistic (most statistics show something between 3-5%). The ~10% numbers come usually from LA and the ~1% numbers come usually from Westboro Baptist types.

Oh and yes, times are changing. In the under 30 years old cohort the LGBTQ numbers can almost double (6-8%).

Edited by ambi76

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, Ran, and nobody is saying that. But who's the fairest (as well as lithe and slender) of them all, and why is that guy the one who is gay?

Well actually as far as current living characters in Westeros go I'd say Jamie pre-capture was probably considered to be more attractive than Ser Loras by the average woman(not young ladies like Sansa) in Westeros. And if you add the dead then Rhaegar is definitely considered to be the fairest of them all, even Cersei says Jamie is nothing compared to Rhaegar in the looks department, I don't think Ser Loras is quite on Rhaegar's level.....

Edited by Jon Icefyre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, can someone please explain to me why Sansa was crying at the sight of Littlefinger's ship sailing away?

Also.....

ARE YOU HAPPY NOW ROS HATERS? Poor Ros, she was there to help meet HBO's nudity quota, then discarded to let us know that Littlefinger is ruthless and Joffrey is sadistic and evil....

Because we didn't know that already...

I don't understand the Ros haters myself. There are lots of prostitutes in the books, the show runners have just combined them into one character for the sake of narrative convenience and production economy. It's one of the few changes from the book that makes a lot of sense and most importantly has no impact whatsoever on the telling of the story. Of all the things you could be complaining about, Ros is the least in so many respects.

The supreme irony is that with Ros gone they're likely going to have to create Ros 2.0 fairly soon, because there's going to be a continuing need to combine the prostitute characters. So there, Ros haters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many times do people watch each new episodes ?

The second watch through is always better

Here is my review, Would be great to get your views !

What do you people think of Ramsay ?

I'm hoping he doesn't go over the top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So what if Loras fucked another man, the heterosexual characters go around fucking every girl they see (Bronn being the best example), but I don't see you complaining about them being overtly masculine. So come, come now, don't treat homosexuals and heterosexuals any differently Pat! .

Bronn nor those other characters just had the love of their life just murdered, it would be like if Catelyn had just randomly decided to fuck Greatjon in season 2 without a thought about Ned at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree with you somewhat in that Loras is not completely stereotypical: he is often said to be one of the top swordsmen in the Seven Realms. I actually think the actor who plays Loras on the show is doing a pretty good job. ShowLoras is more interesting than BookLoras to me and may get even more so depending on future B&B changes to his story arc (joining the Kingsguard or marrying Cersei).

I agree with you completely. I really like Loras on the show, but I thought he was just an arrogant dickhole in the books and didn't care about him either way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many times do people watch each new episodes ?

The second watch through is always better

Here is my review, Would be great to get your views !

What do you people think of Ramsay ?

I'm hoping he doesn't go over the top.

Once the night it airs, then usually the Tuesday afterwards. But I actually skipped the rewatch yesterday because I watched it about an hour before it even premiered (Comcast posted it on their streaming website), then I watched most of the live showing.

But when season 3 is done, I'm going to rewatch the series. Then I may rewatch season 3 again because I only have HBO for about 2 more months before it gets cut off (got it for free right now).

Edited by ebevan91

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bronn nor those other characters just had the love of their life just murdered, it would be like if Catelyn had just randomly decided to fuck Greatjon in season 2 without a thought about Ned at all.

Exactally that's the big difference. If they did this to Catelyn people would be so upset! I know I would!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you're completely right on Shae. Good call.

As for Loras, while I'm sure Olenna did probably agree there, I'd imagine Loras will flat out refuse, and become Kingsguard

Or maybe Twyin will die, and Cersei will flat out refuse Loras. leaving his only option to join the KG...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactally that's the big difference. If they did this to Catelyn people would be so upset! I know I would!

What you don't understand is that we are not denying that shagging a random guy made Loras look much shallower. That is true.

We don't agree with those who say that the show portrayed Loras as a gay stereotype, because of his fucking that lad he had just met.

What we are saying is that everybody in the show randomly fucks everybody else, and by no means that can be considered differently for Loras, just because he's gay.

I will repeat it. Would I have liked Loras to mourn Renly? Yes. Was Loras turned into a gay stereotype because "gays fuck whoever they see"? No, almost everyone else in the show fucks whoever they see, and that does not turn them into straight stereotypes. Therefore, the thing cannot be different for Loras.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will repeat it. Would I have liked Loras to mourn Renly? Yes. Was Loras turned into a gay stereotype because "gays fuck whoever they see"? No, almost everyone else in the show fucks whoever they see, and that does not turn them into straight stereotypes. Therefore, the thing cannot be different for Loras.

It isn't a straight stereotype that straights sleep with whoever they see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It isn't a straight stereotype that straights sleep with whoever they see.

Nonsense. It is as much as it is for homosexuals. People shag, regardless of their sexual orientation, full stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok, can someone please explain to me why Sansa was crying at the sight of Littlefinger's ship sailing away?

Sansa just being an idiot as usual. LF wants to take her to the Eyrie; she agrees. Then she decides with a broken gaydar that marrying Loras and leaving for Highgarden is a better idea. When Tyrion drops the bomb on her, she hopes being whisked away to her aunt is still on the table. Littlefinger morphs into Middlefinger in the nick of time and gives Sansa a big fat "fuck you."

It's possible LF isn't on the boat, and we'll see a surprise during the RW: Dontos rescues Sansa in time to get a crossbow reward just like in the books, and LF helps Sansa after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...