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[Book Spoilers] EP306 Discussion

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What was insulting about Show Renly's portrayal? While I thought they missed an opportunity with his character having decided to show the homosexuality in a direct way, unlike in the books, I don't see what was insulting about his portrayal.

Show!Renly couldn't even look at his own blood, he was manipulated by his boyfriend into starting a war, he was never shown to have any military ability, he lacked charisma, etc. He was a complete shadow of the character we got in the books; all his various character traits were either toned down or replaced with stereotypical gay characteristics.

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Show!Renly couldn't even look at his own blood, he was manipulated by his boyfriend into starting a war, he was never shown to have any military ability, he lacked charisma, etc. He was a complete shadow of the character we got in the books; all his various character traits were either toned down or replaced with stereotypical gay characteristics.

I will agree that they should have upped the charisma quotient, but I don't remember Book Renly having any military ability etiher and I don't agree that Loras manipulated him. Book Renly had some stereotypical traits as well, namely his love of pageantry and of being the best, most richly dressed guy in Westeros.

I did think they spent too little time building up his character, especially the fact of how he was able to relate to high and low born people and bring them in as his allies..but then I always thought Book Renly would have been a good king, better than Stannis, LOL.

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I don't remember show-Renly all that much so I'm curious about that too. The only strong impression he left me with was that he was generally a nicer person than his book counterpart, but more naive and less clever overall as well. (and even that could be mistaken, like I said, I barely remember his portrayal)

Wasn't he afraid of blood, and Loras cut him on the chest to try to force him to deal with that? That definitely weakened the character somewhat.

I have mild problems with the depiction of Loras, but I wouldn't call it offensive: somewhat worrying or off-putting, yeah, but offensive to me would be if he were limp-wristed and going on to Sansa about "Oh, girl, you don't know a THING about what to wear!", and so on. But maybe that's just my use of the word: I'd reserve offensive for something that would simply make me stop watching the show, something going way into racist or sexist or homophobic stereotypes (I'd say the wedding of Dany and Khal Drogo was the worst the show has gone in that direction, and that was only barely saved by the fact that the Dothraki don't really exist). There's definitely a bit of the gay stereotype to the way they're handling Loras, but offensive? No - it's not that bad. Reserve that for books or shows that present "Killing f**s" or gay people as a positive thing.

(Edited to asterisk out an offensive word because I realized I'm not too sure what the rules are here.)

Edited by lostinasia

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I forgot about that. Eeehhhh, yeah I can see where people are coming from with Renly. It says a lot that I still barely remember him outside of that Margaery scene even though I've re-watched S2 somewhat recently.

It probably would have been better if Loras' awkward date with Sansa had involved him going on about tourneys or something rather than fashion, but IDK. Maybe the sudden interest in fashion is because of Renly's influence(wasn't Renly big into that in the books too?), or he was just going over common ground with Sansa to make that whole thing less awkward and more comfortable.

Agreed with most of you in that they could handle Loras a lot better, but I don't think the character is necessarily 'ruined' or anything. His scenes lately have kind of sucked but they don't undo the awesome stuff that's already established him like him beating Gregor, right? Plus we have no idea where this portrayal is headed.

Edited by chareth cutestory

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...I have mild problems with the depiction of Loras, but I wouldn't call it offensive: somewhat worrying or off-putting, yeah, but offensive to me would be if he were limp-wristed and going on to Sansa about "Oh, girl, you don't know a THING about what to wear!", and so on. ...

I think, thats a good way to put it. Its *overall* a bit in the "worrying"-department.

But as I said, I was actually quite pleased with the character in this episode.

The interaction with sansa was spot on if you ask me.

- They will be married soon, so weddings are a fitting toppic.

- You can see, that his personal point interest lie more in the tournament/fighting

- He is nice enough to try to talk about stuff, she might be interested in.*

- As he isnt used to this type of conversation, so he comes off a bit clumsy.

*To go on about tourneys or something, would have been an option, but then he would have come of much more egoistic.

If he was just a Hound in white armor, then people would have been: "Sansa is better of with Tyrion"

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Well, I think that scene with Loras Tyrell was done very well.

It didnt seem to me, that he was totally a fan of dresses ect. it was more that he was trying to have a nice warm conversation with a poor girl which he is totally not interested in. (But will soon have to marry)

For me, the actor clearly tried to experess, that he would have rather talked about the tournament, than the dresses. -> But was intelligent enough to realize, that this wouldnt be a nice topic for a little girl.

This matches perfectly with how Margaery ties to interact with Joffrey. (No, she isnt totally into tombs and crossbows either...)

Spot on. Some people are so busy trying to find some spurious reason why the show isn't as good as the book that they they can't appreciate what are actually really good scenes.

Some of these little 'quiet' scenes are the underated gems of the series imo (I think my favourite being the S1 Ned/Arya 'no, that's not me' scene).

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Here is my review.

I thought it was great. Despite a lack of action and other things, I think this episode is the thinking persons episode.

It was great!

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My reaction to Ros' death was that Margery is in trouble. We've seen Margery twist Joffrey around her finger this season; I think it was important to see a brutal demonstration of the limits of that approach.

I liked that Loras and Sansa managed to make a connection, but it is hard to imagine that would have been a happy marriage. Somebody on here pointed out that it is interesting that Shae knew of the proposal but apparently hadn't told Tyrion. It kind of seems like Shae and Tyrion are not currently sleeping together, since Tyrion decided it was too risky, so maybe she hadn't had a chance? Or maybe she prefers being a maid to being a mistress?

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If he was just a Hound in white armor, then people would have been: "Sansa is better of with Tyrion"

Seeing how they have already done that I don't see why it would matter.

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If he was just a Hound in white armor, then people would have been: "Sansa is better of with Tyrion"

Eeerrrr. One of my friends thinks Tyrion is way better for Sansa. The unsullied of the TWoP, think Tyrion is "the purest definition of good, strong, and kind" and that he is the kind of man that Ned would have wanted Sansa to marry. (thanks to the "whitewashing"). Another friend hates Sansa. He cannot stand her, he says she is incerdibly stupid and dumb and wants her to have a terrible death. He thinks that Tyrion doesn't deserve to be married to such person, and hopes she dies before the wedding so Tyrion doesn't have to marry her. Soo......what's your point again?

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My reaction to Ros' death was that Margery is in trouble. We've seen Margery twist Joffrey around her finger this season; I think it was important to see a brutal demonstration of the limits of that approach.

Joff is a bully. He wouldnt dare touch Margaery.

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  1. They didn't make him as tough as GRRM intended him to be. Why not?

  2. He was stupid in this episode too - he could barely hold a conversation with Sansa.

It's an insulting presentation of the only gay character in the show, which makes it pretty offensive to me when combined with the erasure of Xaro Xhoan Daxos's homosexuality and the equally insulting portrayal of Renly Baratheon.

Hello this isnt a Human Rights Campaign film, it's a story with characters.

ANd i watched it again and didnt hate it as much. I liked the scene with the very young and romantic Sansa and Loras getting to know one another.

As a white person I was offended they made XXD black. Not!!!

Edited by rmholt

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Seeing how they have already done that I don't see why it would matter.

Yes, some people see it that way.

And characters like the Hound also have much more female fans, than the GRRM would have imagined.

But I dont think, thats a problem of the books or the show. It is in general just very difficult to see, what type of impact a grey character is gonna have on people. (Although Tyrion comes of a bit too white in the show maybe...)

So you have 2 things: The intention and image of the writer, and the perception of the audience.

I mean... who is torturing Theon? Even if you dont know the book, you actually have the hint of the trumpet, the bolton-sigil and the fact, that Lord bolton said, he sends his bastard to free winterfell. They even tell you, he is no no karstark. (So not too much factions left in the show)

Now you could say, that it is actually pretty clear who he is.

Still, I dont think, most people who watch the show "know".

But the intent is clear, that you could know if you really wanted. (But its still not 100% sure)

And I guess, that with the sansa-tyrion thing its the same.

You arent forced to see, why thats such a bad situation, but you could.

But if you arent given the "hint", that Lorras tries to be nice to Sansa, then the "she is better of with tyrion" would be not only the perception, but also the truth.

Edited by poggo

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Yes, some people see it that way.

And characters like the Hound also have much more female fans, than the GRRM would have imagined.

But I dont think, thats a problem of the books or the show. It is in general just very difficult to see, what type of impact a grey character is gonna have on people. (Although Tyrion comes of a bit too white in the show maybe...)

So you have 2 things: The intention and image of the writer, and the perception of the audience.

Show Tyrion would give Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy a run for their money in the contest for Truest Knight. The fact is they have yet present any reasonable explanation of why shouldn't be automatically happy with Tyrion why repeatedly hitting us over the head why the Loras match wouldn't be good.

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Which Tyrion's actions in the books have been omitted in the show that so many people say he's whitewashed? I'm not saying he isn't, just surprised so many people feel so strongly about it, i haven't really noticed him to be a way better person than in the books. He's a whoremonger in the books and the show, he protects Sansa in books and the show etc. I really feel like he is the same person in both, and i recall a GRRM interview in which he also said that Peter Dinklage's portrayal of Tyrion is the closest to the book.

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Which Tyrion's actions in the books have been omitted in the show that so many people say he's whitewashed? I'm not saying he isn't, just surprised so many people feel so strongly about it, i haven't really noticed him to be a way better person than in the books. He's a whoremonger in the books and the show, he protects Sansa in books and the show etc. I really feel like he is the same person in both, and i recall a GRRM interview in which he also said that Peter Dinklage's portrayal of Tyrion is the closest to the book.

Show Tyrion never:

- Said he imagined his father and sister burning when he was a kid.

- Broke Marilion's fingers.

- Said he participated in Tysha's rape.

- Slapped Shae.

- Gave the antler men to Joff so he could throw them with a trebuchet.

- Poisoned Cersei.

- Burned everything outside of the Mud Gate.

- Threatened to rape Tommen.

- Killed Symon Silver Tongue (well this hasn't happened yet, but I doubt it will)

- Was convinced into marrying Sansa, and actually saw it as a benefit for himself. (he was forced, never saw it as a benefit, and heck he even told her about it)

I watch (or read?) an interview with GRRM where they asked him what portrayal he liked the most. He said that Tyrion because he thinks Dinklage makes him stand out whenever he is on screen, but he also said that Dinklage's Tyrion is quite different from his.

Edited by Darth Zyroth

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Show Tyrion never:

- Said he imagined his father and sister burning when he was a kid.

- Broke Marilion's fingers.

- Said he participated in Tysha's rape.

- Slapped Shae.

- Gave the antler men to Joff so he could throw them with a trebuchet.

- Poisoned Cersei.

- Burned everything outside of the Mud Gate.

- Threatened to rape Tommen.

- Killed Symon Silver Tongue (well this hasn't happened yet, but I doubt it will)

- Was convinced into marrying Sansa, and actually saw it as a benefit for himself. (he was forced, never saw it as a benefit, and heck he even told her about it)

I watch (or read? I don't remember) an interview with GRRM where they asked him what portrayal he liked the most. He said that Tyrion because he thinks Dinklage makes him stand out whenever he is on screen, but he also said that Dinklage's Tyrion is very different from his.

Yeah i see it now, he definitely is more ruthless and vengeful in the books. Still i believe the bigger problem in this context is Loras. He's portrayed as an utter asshole in the show, it's almost as if they told the actor "ok just behave really arrogant, we'll throw in multiple gay scenes, and it should be fine". Book Tyrion at least defends Sansa from Joffrey and as we see later is rather kind to her (as kind as you can be to a wife whose family was butchered by your family really).

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Yeah i see it now, he definitely is more ruthless and vengeful in the books. Still i believe the bigger problem in this context is Loras. He's portrayed as an utter asshole in the show, it's almost as if they told the actor "ok just behave really arrogant, we'll throw in multiple gay scenes, and it should be fine". Book Tyrion at least defends Sansa from Joffrey and as we see later is rather kind to her (as kind as you can be to a wife whose family was butchered by your family really).

I don't see Loras as an asshole in the show but I do think it was a bad move to have him fall into bed with the first random guy who approached him and blab about fringed sleeves....Season 2 Loras who had to be practically forced to leave Renly's corpse and only did so with the promise of living for revenge seems to have been body snatched and replaced by Really Gay Loras Who Likes Casual Sex And Clothes, which is a shame.

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I don't see Loras as an asshole in the show but I do think it was a bad move to have him fall into bed with the first random guy who approached him and blab about fringed sleeves....Season 2 Loras who had to be practically forced to leave Renly's corpse and only did so with the promise of living for revenge seems to have been body snatched and replaced by Really Gay Loras Who Likes Casual Sex And Clothes, which is a shame.

:D Well said. Dunno maybe you're right, now that i think of all the arrogant remarks he makes in the show, they are actually somewhere in the books as well (like not admitting Brienne beat him in that tourney for example).

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