Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Mark Antony

[Book Spoilers] Joffrey and Ser Mandon Moore

Recommended Posts

There's a scene between Cersei and Jaime in which Cersei kinda berates him for doing something so stupid and what if he gets caught, and Jaime responds saying he did it for them and he doesn't care if he gets caught, he'll kill everyone, including Robert, until only he and Cersei remain. Then they have sexy times, naturally b/c it turns Cersei on.

wasn't she referring to the actual pushing out the window not the hiring of a cutthroat to finish the job?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What? Why would that scene prove Jaime to be the on behind the assassin, they are talking about it because Bran awakened (Jaime immediately asks "what has he told them?"), and Cersei refers to Jaime pushing Bran out of the window (this fits better the "it's a little too late to complain about that now" line). To me that scene is an obvious showcase of Lannisters learning that Bran is healing, not that Cersei learnt that Jaime sent someone to kill him.

wasn't she referring to the actual pushing out the window not the hiring of a cutthroat to finish the job?

I don't think so. It happens after the cutthroat incident. Why would she be talking about pushing Bran out the window when they already had that scene and the memorable "things I do for love." Jaime is explaining why he took the further step of hiring someone to finish the job. I can't currently rewatch the scene but from the dialogue it seemed clear they were referring to the new development.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like it's a precursor to the PW. Giving Tyrion a motive. And also bringing up poisoning as an effective method of killing. Cersei's testimony will be quite strong now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't wait to see Cersei becoming so sure that it was Tyrion. Making all the false connections....Convincing herself that he wanted Joffrey dead. Should be fun, and the beginning of madness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely disagree. They were talking about him pushing Bran out of the window. Jaime Lannister wouldnt hire an assassisn to do his killing for him.

I don't think so. It happens after the cutthroat incident. Why would she be talking about pushing Bran out the window when they already had that scene and the memorable "things I do for love." Jaime is explaining why he took the further step of hiring someone to finish the job. I can't currently rewatch the scene but from the dialogue it seemed clear they were referring to the new development.

Definitely disagree. They were talking about him pushing Bran out of the window. Jaime Lannister wouldnt hire an assassisn to do his killing for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Cersei's POVs she never once recalls or thinks about trying to have Tyrion killed during the Blackwater despite her constant dwellings on him. If she had tried to have him killed in the books, Martin would have resolved the mystery by making a reference to it during her POVs.

I made a thread about this years ago before the show came out because it's intriguing and I was afraid Martin may have forgotten it as a plot hole and the consensus in that thread seemed to be that it was Joffrey, with some debate as to Littlefinger suggested it or not (I'm partial to the LF pulled the strings aspect of it but many people will point out that LF was gone in the Reach for half the book, so he would have had to arrange it very far in advance).

I think the show just confirmed a lot of what we already deduced in the book. The only difference is that they made Tyrion figure it out, unlike in the books when he mistakenly believes it was Cersei.

This does give him a motive for the Purple Wedding but the show viewers still have to see the mystery of who killed Bran solved. I'm assuming Tyrion will figure it out before the wedding and tell Joffrey, same as in the books, which also gives him a motive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was never a forgone conclusion, although its a popular choice on the boards. Personally I always thought it was Joffrey as it fits the MO he established with Bran.

Okay I've been seeing this referenced a lot but for the life of me I cannot remember in the books ever finding out that Joff is the one who sent the assassin after Bran. Someone please clarify.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always suspected Mandon Moore tried to kill Tyrion on LF's orders. Guess it doesn't make sense for a KG to be on LF's payroll though, even one of such dubious moral caliber as Moore.

Could still be LF working through his proxy Joffrey, as some have suggested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay I've been seeing this referenced a lot but for the life of me I cannot remember in the books ever finding out that Joff is the one who sent the assassin after Bran. Someone please clarify.

spoilered for length

Joffrey flicked a chunk of Lives of Four Kings off the table at swordpoint, then slid Widow’s Wail back into its scabbard.

“Your Grace,” Ser Garlan Tyrell said. “Perhaps you did not know. In all of Westeros there were but four copies of that book illuminated in Kaeth’s own hand.”

“Now there are three.” Joffrey undid his old swordbelt to don his new one. “You and Lady Sansa owe me a better present, Uncle Imp. This one is all chopped to pieces.”

Tyrion was staring at his nephew with his mismatched eyes. “Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel . . . with a dragonbone hilt, say?”

Joff gave him a sharp look. “You . . . yes, a dagger to match my sword, good.” He nodded. “A . . . a gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain.”

“I was sorry about your book, my lord,” she made herself say.

“It was Joffrey’s book. He might have learned a thing or two if he’d read it.” He sounded distracted. “I should have known better. I should have seen . . . a good many things.”

“Perhaps the dagger will please him more.”

When the dwarf grimaced, his scar tightened and twisted. “The boy’s earned himself a dagger, wouldn’t you say?” Thankfully Tyrion did not wait for her reply. “Joff quarreled with your brother Robb at Winterfell. Tell me, was there ill feeling between Bran and His Grace as well?”

“Bran?” The question confused her. “Before he fell, you mean?” She had to try and think back. It was all so long ago. “Bran was a sweet boy. Everyone loved him. He and Tommen fought with wooden swords, I remember, but just for play.”

Tyrion lapsed back into moody silence.

I am no stranger to Valyrian steel, the boy had boasted. The septons were always going on about how the Father Above judges us all. If the Father would be so good as to topple over and crush Joff like a dung beetle, I might even believe it. He ought to have seen it long ago. Jaime would never send another man to do his killing, and Cersei was too cunning to use a knife that could be traced back to her, but Joff, arrogant vicious stupid little wretch that he was . . .

He remembered a cold morning when he’d climbed down the steep exterior steps from Winterfell’s library to find Prince Joffrey jesting with the Hound about killing wolves. Send a dog to kill a wolf, he said. Even Joffrey was not so foolish as to command Sandor Clegane to slay a son of Eddard Stark, however; the Hound would have gone to Cersei. Instead the boy found his catspaw among the unsavory lot of freeriders, merchants, and camp followers who’d attached themselves to the king’s party as they made their way north. Some poxy lackwit willing to risk his life for a prince’s favor and a little coin.

Tyrion wondered whose idea it had been to wait until Robert left Winterfell before opening Bran’s throat. Joff’s, most like. No doubt he thought it was the height of cunning.

The prince’s own dagger had a jeweled pommel and inlaid goldwork on the blade, Tyrion seemed to recall. At least Joff had not been stupid enough to use that. Instead he went poking among his father’s weapons. Robert Baratheon was a man of careless generosity, and would have given his son any dagger he wanted . . . but Tyrion guessed that the boy had just taken it. Robert had come to Winterfell with a long tail of knights and retainers, a huge wheelhouse, and a baggage train. No doubt some diligent servant had made certain that the king’s weapons went with him, in case he should desire any of them.

The blade Joff chose was nice and plain. No goldwork, no jewels in the hilt, no silver inlay on the blade. King Robert never wore it, had likely forgotten he owned it. Yet the Valyrian steel was deadly sharp . . . sharp enough to slice through skin, flesh, and muscle in one quick stroke. I am no stranger to Valyrian steel. But he had been, hadn’t he? Else he would never have been so foolish as to pick Littlefinger’s knife.

The why of it still eluded him. Simple cruelty, perhaps? His nephew had that in abundance. It was all Tyrion could do not to retch up all the wine he’d drunk, piss in his breeches, or both. He squirmed uncomfortably. He ought to have held his tongue at breakfast. The boy knows I know now. My big mouth will be the death of me, I swear it.

“If I’d let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . . ”

“Did I tell you to throw him out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.”

“I’d waited long enough. I hated watching Robert stumble to your bed every night, always wondering if maybe this night he’d decide to claim his rights as husband.” Jaime suddenly remembered something else that troubled him about Winterfell. “At Riverrun,

Catelyn Stark seemed convinced I’d sent some footpad to slit her son’s throat. That I’d given him a dagger.”

“That,” she said scornfully. “Tyrion asked me about that.”

“There was a dagger. The scars on Lady Catelyn’s hands were real enough, she showed them to me. Did you . . . ?”

“Oh, don’t be absurd.” Cersei closed the window. “Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you. Even Robert thought that would have been for the best. ‘We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children,’ he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink.”

Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. “Were you alone when Robert said this?”

“You don’t think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children.” Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. “Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?”

It was meant as mockery, but she’d cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. “Not Myrcella. Joffrey.”

Cersei frowned. “Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself . “

“A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father.” He had an uncomfortable thought. “Tyrion almost died because of this bloody dagger. If he knew the whole thing was Joffrey’s work, that might be why . . . ”

Soooo Joffrey's reaction and Tyrion's sensible train of thought is basically confirmation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

spoilered for length

Soooo Joffrey's reaction and Tyrion's sensible train of thought is basically confirmation.

Wow, thank you. I can't believe I forgot all that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Touche and i wouldn't doubt him whispering in Joffreys ear, Interesting how in the same episode they show Littlefinger giving Ros to his "friend" Joffrey.

I also think he nudged Joffrey into having Ned executed lol maybe i just am giving LF to much credit and underestimating Joffrey.

Absolutely. Only I don't think you're giving LF too much credit, I think that's exactly what he did to orchestrate Ned's beheading. In addition, we know he will orchestrate Joff's murder at the hand of QOT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the Littlefinger-theory.

Tyrion and Cersei suspect it was Joff, because they think only a royal family-member could give the order.

Though at that very point of the storyline the Kingsguard is a disgrace and someone like LF could easily have a man in there or buy one of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM really should be asked to resolve this riddle in book canon now. Else people start to believe the show gave the right answer - which would be okay if the show gave the right answer. But I'm not sure about that. It makes sense to establish that both Cersei an Tyrion believe that Joffrey did it, since that may be the deciding factor for Cersei to believe that Tyrion poisoned Joffrey, but the way Joff was portrayed both during in the book and show during the Battle on the Blackwater does not seem to indicate that Joffrey wanted to kill his uncle at this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like it's a precursor to the PW. Giving Tyrion a motive. And also bringing up poisoning as an effective method of killing. Cersei's testimony will be quite strong now.

Yeah. That scene was designed in order to make sure Cersei knew that Tyrion had reason to fear Joffrey's intentions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's still ambiguity... Cersei either pretends that it was Joff, or she knows that it was Joff, or she THINKS that it was Joff.

But who actually influenced the gold cloaks all the way back in season/book 1? From my recollection, it was Littlefinger.

Gold cloaks are people too, and people are so very corruptible and bribeable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a scene between Cersei and Jaime in which Cersei kinda berates him for doing something so stupid and what if he gets caught, and Jaime responds saying he did it for them and he doesn't care if he gets caught, he'll kill everyone, including Robert, until only he and Cersei remain. Then they have sexy times, naturally b/c it turns Cersei on.

Huh. I never took that scene that way. I always thought he was referring to the initial nudge he gave Bran out the window and not the assassination attempt w/ the knife.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Killing Of Ros by Joffrey who is kind a friend of Tyrions likely will make Tyrion seem more quilty when he likely confronts him about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×