[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?

[Khal Pono]

I don't like how Renly and Loras are being depicted as EXTREMELY gay, to the point that the thought of being with a woman makes them nervous/queasy.

The gay men I know think women are beautiful--even sexy--and most of them have even had sex with a woman at least once and enjoyed it, though it's not what they would prefer. I've never met a gay man who cringes at the idea of touching a woman.

I thought the Renly/Margaery scene was somewhat unrealistic--especially if he was drunk. A real man--gay or straight--would totally go for it.

Likewise, someone as smooth and socially competent as Loras should at least be able to *pretened* he finds Sansa desirable.

[Minsc]

Besides, when Aerys made Jaime part of the KG, there wasn't a war goin on and there wasn't much Tywin could do. In Loras' case, the Tyrells can just imply they'd join the Starks if Tywin pushes them on this, and he can't do anything.

This ^

Really, by this time it is the Tyrells who are on the rise so I doubt Tywin would be idiotic enough to threaten to harm his only major alliance. Especially, when he and King's Landing is surrounded by Tyrell soldiers and the Lannisters are depleted.

[AliKat]

This should have been robb n cats season, and now it's too late. We should have had the she bears n more greatjon and all the ppl that loved robb. They look completely alone n issolated n the the only times theyre shown is when robb fucked up n gets critised for it by his own banner men. What will they have robb, cat n edmure walking in alone into the twins just seems really dump. I wanted dacey Lil crush on robb n her mother n better casting for the greatjon n more sceen time especially this season. imagine if they took all those ros, pod, bronn n brothel scenes out n put something that actually has something to do with the story. The show gives better coverage of what's happening in KL, lannisters especially Tyrion. They fucked over Dany in season 2 and now robb n cat.

:bowdown: YES! They have taken so much time from Cat/Robb and its too late to salvage. At this point a lot of the people who never read the books hate Robb (the same ones who loved him last season) and book readers are fed up and read for the RW now. The reason why Robb is coming off so bad is because he's getting short scenes where Talisa is getting more screen time than Cat. I didn't hate Talisa last season because they had chemistry. They don't now. She was looking at him lustily 2-3 times so far this season and each time he's blown her off. (so its hard to understand him blowing the Frey alliance for 'love' when you don't see them being in love anymore) The honeymoon is over. She interferes with things to do with the war yet admits she doesn't know where Winterfell is. Let Cat have her scenes/lines back. Let Robb show some humanity again rather than just fed up, burnt out, 'I'm losing everything and I can't fix it' temper flareups with no real reflection.

The Edmure scene was pretty true to the book except the Blackfish says in the book that he's the last person to insist on a marriage but he did mention that he'd (Edmure) would make it up to Robb. At least on the show Robb admitted Edmure was saving his ass because he messed up and he appreciated it.

I wish they had included more Northern bannermen and less Tyrell adds on (nieces, cheeseboy, etc) or KL's whores. Less time spent on Theon's torture because a lot of it is getting too graphic too watch and it was good enough to be implied in the book. And 80% of it could have been done in Season 4. Ramsey has shown he's a sick ticket - let's focus on things that have to happen before the RW. Jon's whole story beyond the wall was so compressed its no wonder Ygritte doubts him. He's barely shown any integration!

I was upset by the handling of the whole marriage to Cersei/Loras - not believable. And it took away the fact that Loras became a Kingsguard to protect Margarery. The attempt on Tyrion's life blamed on Joffrey when we all know that doesn't make sense. They also blamed Joff for the murder of Robert's bastards instead of Cersei I believe. Its like they are completely de-villianzing her and making her look like a battered woman when she did a lot of evil things on her own that had nothing to do with her daddy being mean or her husband being a drunk.

I love the show but its like its trying to cram too many characters and too much violence in and its suffering on the actual story. I have to explain things to my non-book reading friends each week because its not making sense without a lot of the storylines they're leaving out.

[PatrickStormborn]

Something i don't understand about the Tywin / Queen of thorns convo was: Loras was on Renly's Rainbow Guard. Maybe i just assumed it was exactly like the kingsguard... So it's like, they were already okay with Loras losing his entitlement to Highgarden and all that previously by their own actions.

Was it ever confirmed that Loras was in Renly's Kingsguard in the show?

Who cares? He is who is and that's all that matters. Some people are just born evil.

It's implied very heavily in the books that Joffrey's behaviour is a response to Robert's neglectful parenting.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

:bowdown: YES! They have taken so much time from Cat/Robb and its too late to salvage. At this point a lot of the people who never read the books hate Robb (the same ones who loved him last season) and book readers are fed up and read for the RW now. The reason why Robb is coming off so bad is because he's getting short scenes where Talisa is getting more screen time than Cat. I didn't hate Talisa last season because they had chemistry. They don't now. She was looking at him lustily 2-3 times so far this season and each time he's blown her off. (so its hard to understand him blowing the Frey alliance for 'love' when you don't see them being in love anymore) The honeymoon is over. She interferes with things to do with the war yet admits she doesn't know where Winterfell is. Let Cat have her scenes/lines back. Let Robb show some humanity again rather than just fed up, burnt out, 'I'm losing everything and I can't fix it' temper flareups with no real reflection.

The Edmure scene was pretty true to the book except the Blackfish says in the book that he's the last person to insist on a marriage but he did mention that he'd (Edmure) would make it up to Robb. At least on the show Robb admitted Edmure was saving his ass because he messed up and he appreciated it.

I wish they had included more Northern bannermen and less Tyrell adds on (nieces, cheeseboy, etc) or KL's whores. Less time spent on Theon's torture because a lot of it is getting too graphic too watch and it was good enough to be implied in the book. And 80% of it could have been done in Season 4. Ramsey has shown he's a sick ticket - let's focus on things that have to happen before the RW. Jon's whole story beyond the wall was so compressed its no wonder Ygritte doubts him. He's barely shown any integration!

I was upset by the handling of the whole marriage to Cersei/Loras - not believable. And it took away the fact that Loras became a Kingsguard to protect Margarery. The attempt on Tyrion's life blamed on Joffrey when we all know that doesn't make sense. They also blamed Joff for the murder of Robert's bastards instead of Cersei I believe. Its like they are completely de-villianzing her and making her look like a battered woman when she did a lot of evil things on her own that had nothing to do with her daddy being mean or her husband being a drunk.

I love the show but its like its trying to cram too many characters and too much violence in and its suffering on the actual story. I have to explain things to my non-book reading friends each week because its not making sense without a lot of the storylines they're leaving out.

I couldn't agree more. I can't wait for RW so that we can finally get rid of the depressed halfwit known as The King in the North. And the worst part is that many people I know feel the same way. I was rooting for him in the books but on the show he is, together with Mance, probably the worst character this season.

[Broken Fox]

It's implied very heavily in the books that Joffrey's behaviour is a response to Robert's neglectful parenting.

A lot of people had neglectful fathers. That alone won't turn you into the evil that Joffrey has become.

No, Joffrey is a born monster.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

Tommen had the same father...

[PatrickStormborn]

A lot of people had neglectful fathers. That alone won't turn you into the evil that Joffrey has become.

No, Joffrey is a born monster.

But Joffrey's actions were done to IMPRESS Robert. For example, when he cut the cat open, it was to imitate Robert's hunting.

Joffrey clearly had a fairly bad natural disposition. But Robert's poor parenting played a huge role in Joffrey's later actions.

[Minsc]

A lot of people had neglectful fathers. That alone won't turn you into the evil that Joffrey has become.

No, Joffrey is a born monster.

I somewhat agree seeing how Myrcella and Tommen had the same terrible "father" and mother but they are both sweat and innocent children.

[ambi76]

Was it ever confirmed that Loras was in Renly's Kingsguard in the show?

Only in Marg's and Littlefinger's season 2 scene where he grills her about Renly/Loras ("A kingsguard's place is at his king's side") which I guess is now conveniently forgotten or Renly's guard had totally different rules or something. :rolleyes:

ETA: Loras the heir is definitely a season 3 retcon though as in some introductionary family features of HBO GRRM explicitly refers to season 1 Loras as third son of Mace Tyrell.

[PatrickStormborn]

Only in Marg's and Littlefinger's season 2 scene where he grills her about Renly/Loras ("A kingsguard's place is at his king's side") which I guess is now conveniently forgotten or Renly's guard had totally different rules or something. :rolleyes:

Thank you for clarifying this. :) It's just another example of an unnecessary plot-hole. Keeping Willas in the show wouldn't have changed anything; Sansa could still have been betrothed to Loras.

[Broken Fox]

But Joffrey's actions were done to IMPRESS Robert. For example, when he cut the cat open, it was to imitate Robert's hunting.

Joffrey clearly had a fairly bad natural disposition. But Robert's poor parenting played a huge role in Joffrey's later actions.

Dude the cat gutting is a perfect example of pure psycho behavior. Nothing could have been done to save Joffrey.

[Sniraga]

3. My biggest issue with this season is quickly becoming the fact that the Bran scenes just feel like fodder. They know he's important and don't know what to do with him and are largely inventing scenes. I know there is not much material to work from in the books but the material that is there is gold (Knight of the Laughing Tree anyone?) I feel like Bran is being wasted at this point, which is disappointing because the initial introduction to Jojen came across as being very powerful to me.

I agree that D&D haven't developed Bran's storyline as well as the introduction to the Reeds led to expect, but I'm still mostly liking the Bran scenes. They are filler perhaps, but at least they're not porn or torture porn. And it's sort of nice to see something kinda quiet and tranquil, as compared to the chaos and suffering elsewhere. And both Jojen and Meera are still sympathetic and intriguing (more than their book counterparts, IMO), although I wish D&D would have dropped the idea of Meera/Osha clash. It feels just as silly and boring than Jaime/Ned macho crap in S1.

I'm still hoping for the tale of KotLT. It would be so cool if they made it something weird and artistic like the Deathly Hallows story in Harry Potter 7.

[Ran]

It's been since season 2 that I fear I have been waiting for the RW to put Catelyn out of my misery. She could have, should have, been so much more.

[Angmar]

I still enjoyed the episode though, but it does have many flaws. :D

-Brienne's dress. Isn't it supposed to be ugly?

-I actually liked the scenes with BWB and Mel. Her confrontation with Arya was also okay. Though I wonder how'll that affect the Alys Karstark story in season 5/6. If she mistakes Arya with Alys, already knowing how Arya looks, she'll come out as a fool.

-Osha and Meera and rabbits. Pointless filler. There's not much to work with Bran in the book either though.

-Too much Theon torture. It's the same thing every episode and it's so distressing. :frown5:

-Tywin and the Queen of Thorns. She's getting WAAY too much screentime. Also I didn't like her breaking his quill in his face. Seemed too forced and cheesy and the writers trying to prove that "yeah, she's a badass". In the books Olenna is more subtle, and Tywin is never made such a fool.

-Ros' death. Everything from this character has been a shoddy storyline. It's too much of a coincidence; she lives near the Starks, she beds Tyrion and Theon and other main characters, she goes to KL, she witnesses Joffrey's cruelty, LF and Varys seek her out, Cersei takes her for Tyrion's lover...Too much! What, she's the only whore in Westeros or something?

-Sansa being very naive. I thought those times were gone. In season 2 she shown to have grown up. Suddenly Tyrells come and she's acting like a little girl again.

-Waay too much stereotype for Loras and Renly. It gets worse when people comment Sansa and Loras should be bff and he'd be her gay best friend or something. Way to fetishize someone. :rolleyes:

-I like Jon and Ygritte's story. They're trying to make them be the main couple of this season, so her death crushes the audience.

-Cat, being reduced from a POV character in the book to an extra. And yeah, I would have loved to have a Robb POV in the books too, and I loved initially how the show tried to show his story too, but they're turning him very unlikeable.

-LF isn't subtle enough. And I just get bored with all those scenes him and Varys have in the throne room. It's the same thing all over, doesn't advance the plot nor the characters, and it's super boring.

But yeah, I still liked the episode. :D no Dany, yeah. I don't get to see Emilia's angry!Dany for one episode.

[Dragonstoned]

I'm with Patrick on this one, Joffrey has bad genes (maybe from incest?) but it's mostly down to the even worse father figures in his life, Robert and Sandor, and a crap mother in Cersei.

The reason Myrcella and Tommen are different is because of the different relationship they have with their parents, being later-born children and also not growing up with the power and privilege being heir to the throne gives you.

[Roose Seal]

But you see, Loras cares about gowns because he's gay! Get it?

When D&D write an episode, it's like they make a conscious effort to be as ham-fisted as possible.

Littlefinger is EVIL and has an EVIL VOICE. (god I hate aiden gillen for destroying such a great character)

Jon and Ygritte are IN LOVE

Sam has a DRAGONGLASS DAGGER

Olenna is CLEVER

Joffrey is A MONSTER

It's like they reduce every character to one single characteristic. It's especially jarring after a Bryan Cogman episode.

[1234567]

It's been since season 2 that I fear I have been waiting for the RW to put Catelyn out of my misery. She could have, should have, been so much more.

Very, very true. Sadly the RW can't come around fast enough IMHO.

[Young Nan]

But you see, Loras cares about gowns because he's gay! Get it?

When D&D write an episode, it's like they make a conscious effort to be as ham-fisted as possible.

Littlefinger is EVIL and has an EVIL VOICE. (god I hate aiden gillen for destroying such a great character)

Jon and Ygritte are IN LOVE

Sam has a DRAGONGLASS DAGGER

Olenna is CLEVER

Joffrey is A MONSTER

It's like they reduce every character to one single characteristic. It's especially jarring after a Bryan Cogman episode.

I was just saying that a few minutes ago. It's like they are patronizing their viewers. I know many viewers haven't read the books, but they don't need to insult their intelligence either by making all of the characters into caricatures and making every plot point hamfisted and blatantly obvious.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

But Joffrey's actions were done to IMPRESS Robert. For example, when he cut the cat open, it was to imitate Robert's hunting.

Joffrey clearly had a fairly bad natural disposition. But Robert's poor parenting played a huge role in Joffrey's later actions.

Actually no, he cut the cat open when someone told him there were kittens inside and he wanted to see them. When he found them, he showed them to his father. The emphasis in the story was not on his doing it "for" his father but because his mind thought it would be interesting.

The Bran incident is not too different. He overhears his father say it would be a mercy for Bran to die, and again, Joffrey's brain says, "Yeah, that's a good idea." The implication is that Joffrey is psychotic and doesn't need much to undertake gruesome actions. Spending more time with his father could only lead to trouble, since Robert is no angel to begin with.