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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Gendry, Melisandre, Arya, etc.

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She tells Gendry that he will make Kings rise(Stannis) and fall(Robb, Balon, Joffrey)....

Plenty of passages to prove their religious nuts and plenty of passages to show them robbing commonfolk as well(Gendry, Arya, Hot Pie, Brienne, bald Jaime, the Hound) and plenty of passages that show their "trials" are not fair, everyone dies from them. The only two to walk away with their life that we know of are Sandor Clegane and Brienne of Tarth. Brienne doesn't really count because she meets them after unCat is leading the BwBs.

Many people fall victim to their claim of being noble fighters for the common folk and it's true that is their intention but the reality is things like Jaime Lannister says:

"Know this, Blackfish, Lord Beric and this Lady Stoneheart are traitors to the crown and if I find out any of you are aiding them you will die"

I don't think that Gendry is going to think too highly of the BwBs now, they just sold him after he thought they were going to be his friends, his brothers, his family. Maybe he'll seek out his "milady" instead.

Honestly I could think him joining Stannis or sailing off to the free cities(hopefully to Braavos) is more likely than returning to the BwBs.

My hope is he sails for Essos and chooses to go to Braavos, failing that I hope he goes to the Wall and Smiths for them while Stannis is there.

I think it's a bad idea to try and figure out what is going to happen a few seasons down the road. There's no guarantee that the show will still be around and the writers are going to leave as many doors open as possible.

I do think it's clear that they're not concerned about Brienne and Gendry meeting two or three seasons from now.

Why we he want to go anywhere near Stannis and the red woman after being sent away from them? Braavos angle is interesting

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I don't think that Gendry is going to think too highly of the BwBs now, they just sold him after he thought they were going to be his friends, his brothers, his family. Maybe he'll seek out his "milady" instead.

True, that's what bothered me the most about it was that it appears Gendry will be anti-BwB, when in the books he's still a member and seems to believe in them. But rejoining with UnCat as the leader is believable, I guess.

I don't know that he would stay on with Stannis if he's going to be a sacrifice.

edit - I also find it interesting that Gendry will find out who he is, when in the books he still doesn't know.

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Why we he want to go anywhere near Stannis and the red woman after being sent away from them? Braavos angle is interesting

We're making a few assumptions here.

First that Melisandre plans to sacrifice Gendry to the flames. Not a bad assumption but it might not be true either and there is no proof that she's going to tell Gendry this is her plan, infact it seems pretty silly to do that.

Second we're assuming that Davos has to send Gendry away to save his life. This might not be the case, maybe he pulls his trump card out and tells Stannis and Mel about the threat to the Wall and convinces Stannis he needs Gendry to prove that Joffrey is no true heir to Robert. Thus he travels to the Wall with Stannis and smiths for the watch while Stannis goes south or he goes south with Stannis and has a talk with "Arya"

Gendry could even give Jon Snow some feedback about the Red Woman not having a clue about Arya.

"The Lady Melisandre met your sister and didn't even know who she was. I doubt she can identify Arya in the flames."

but still I vote for Gendry being shipped to Braavos :love:

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Can anyone remember exactly what she said to Arya regarding eye color? I thought the reference was to Arya destroying light/life from brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, or something to that effect. I can't remember exactly, but I remember thinking at the time that the green eyes reference might be a clue she returns to kill Cersei.

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I think the quote about the different eyes also imply Arya's status as a faceless men.

But the thing that annoyed me was Mellisandre saying "Valar Morgulis", that's not her saying. That's the Faceless Men's saying, because they worship death. She does not.

Yes, it was the same thing I complained about while watching the episode, and I was a bit impressed no one had notice

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I don't understand why people think Valar Morghulis is a faceless man saying...Missandei used it in the books and it was more like an statement of fact. She said it in the way that "the fact that I may die doesn't frighten me. all men must die." And when Melisandre and Thoros used it, it was obviously meant in the religious sense. The phrase dying to yourself is used in many Christian circles, and a lot of religions view serving as a good thing. So it makes sense that the priests would say that to each other. Reminding each other that they don't live for themselves anymore and that they serve their god.

Now if you buy into the theory that Missandei is a faceless man, this falls apart :P

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We're making a few assumptions here.

First that Melisandre plans to sacrifice Gendry to the flames. Not a bad assumption but it might not be true either and there is no proof that she's going to tell Gendry this is her plan, infact it seems pretty silly to do that.

Second we're assuming that Davos has to send Gendry away to save his life. This might not be the case, maybe he pulls his trump card out and tells Stannis and Mel about the threat to the Wall and convinces Stannis he needs Gendry to prove that Joffrey is no true heir to Robert. Thus he travels to the Wall with Stannis and smiths for the watch while Stannis goes south or he goes south with Stannis and has a talk with "Arya"

Gendry could even give Jon Snow some feedback about the Red Woman not having a clue about Arya.

"The Lady Melisandre met your sister and didn't even know who she was. I doubt she can identify Arya in the flames."

but still I vote for Gendry being shipped to Braavos :love:

Ah that makes sense, thank you. I was also thinking that Mel may want Gendry to have sex with her to birth another shadow baby, but I might be getting confused here. Either way your explanation does clear it up

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How did Melisandre know of Gendry and his location?

Melisandre would have known of Gendry from Stannis, as Stannis was in brother Robert's small council, and would have knowledge of his many bastards. Cersei attempted to extinguish all of Robert's bastards, and sent out searches for both Gendry and Arya. So Gendry has value as a hostage. Remote viewing is a talent possessed by greenseers, among others, so why not Melisandre, too?

Gendry will be returned to Dragonstone with Mel for her sorcerous purposes!

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I don't understand why people think Valar Morghulis is a faceless man saying...Missandei used it in the books and it was more like an statement of fact. She said it in the way that "the fact that I may die doesn't frighten me. all men must die." And when Melisandre and Thoros used it, it was obviously meant in the religious sense. The phrase dying to yourself is used in many Christian circles, and a lot of religions view serving as a good thing. So it makes sense that the priests would say that to each other. Reminding each other that they don't live for themselves anymore and that they serve their god.

Now if you buy into the theory that Missandei is a faceless man, this falls apart :P

Missandei uses it as a matter of fact statement, sort of like someone quoting a common saying for its actual definition and implication, which is how its used in Essos OUTSIDE of FM. Thoros and Mel used the back and forth as a greeting, which is how only the FM use it in the books. So much so that that is the reason the man on the boat gives Arya a ride bc when she greeted him that way he assumed she was an agent with the FM. It corrupts the mythology behind the words

Edit: well that and the coin obviously.

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She tells Gendry that he will make Kings rise(Stannis) and fall(Robb, Balon, Joffrey)....

Plenty of passages to prove their religious nuts and plenty of passages to show them robbing commonfolk as well(Gendry, Arya, Hot Pie, Brienne, bald Jaime, the Hound) and plenty of passages that show their "trials" are not fair, everyone dies from them. The only two to walk away with their life that we know of are Sandor Clegane and Brienne of Tarth. Brienne doesn't really count because she meets them after unCat is leading the BwBs.

Many people fall victim to their claim of being noble fighters for the common folk and it's true that is their intention but the reality is things like Jaime Lannister says:

"Know this, Blackfish, Lord Beric and this Lady Stoneheart are traitors to the crown and if I find out any of you are aiding them you will die"

Yes there are passages of them robbing smallfolk. I never contested that really, they're not fairy-tale knights in shining armour. But off the top of my head I can't remember book passages making them out to be religious zealots.

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It does not seem to me that Mel is told who Arya is. She just seems to get a vibe that she is going to see this girl again. And that could happen if either Mel goes to Braavos in the books (with Justin Massey, Queen Regent Selyse Baratheon, and Queen Regnant Shireen Baratheon at the beginning of TWoW), or if the Faceless Men are going to charge Arya with murdering some of Stannis' enemies. If there is a connection between the Faceless Men and the Iron Bank this may be the twist to have Arya return into the action in Westeros.

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Gendry could even give Jon Snow some feedback about the Red Woman not having a clue about Arya.

"The Lady Melisandre met your sister and didn't even know who she was. I doubt she can identify Arya in the flames."

Well now I really want this. Jon and Gendry interacting would be fantastic. And Gendry would be a perfect tool to let TV viewers know not to trust Mel and her visions 100%.

Also, I think the "We'll meet again" line is purely to give TV viewers hope for when Arya is in Braavos. Because she is there for a while and with this line the viewers know that she will be back.

As book readers, we hope and suspect she'll be back, but we know how GRRM works. We know nothing is certain.

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Im gonna guess that Gendry gets taken back to Dragonstone but they dont tell him who he is. Mel wants to burn him but Stannis is hesitant, so they settle for the leaches for now. Davos sets up Gendry's escape back to the riverlands and he ends up as the blacksmith at the inn and meets Brienne like in the book. He will also join up with Anguy and UnCats half of the BwB after Thoros leaves, since Anguy had no part in selling him.

Crackpot - Mels "Well meet again" line means Arya comes back from Braavos to the Wall with Justin Massey in TWoW.

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I must say that I absolutely disliked M's character from the get but in this ep. her acting was mesmerizing. I couldn't take my eyes off of her. I also agree with the Scabbard of the Morning. I think Mellisandre was referring to Arya's future with the Faceless men. Especially in the many "eyes closing" forever. (i.e. could be different reasons maybe the Faces she takes on, once she is finished and changes Face the eyes or closed forever or the "blinding" practice the Man teaches her in her Faceless man training)

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In regards to the "Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes, Green Eyes" did anyone else interpret this as a reference to Arya's warging? Her eyes are brown, Nymeria's may be blue-ish, and the "green eye" referring to her warging ability (a power that in Bran is connected to being a Greenseer).

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It looks to me like the show wants to give Gendry his own story line and give him more importance.

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Ah that makes sense, thank you. I was also thinking that Mel may want Gendry to have sex with her to birth another shadow baby, but I might be getting confused here. Either way your explanation does clear it up

Well that is also another possibility since she does tell him "you will make kings rise and fall"

I just didn't bother to go into it, see also similarly the "leeches" theory. I might even make a claim she might come up with a totally new spell that we book readers haven't seen.

Yes there are passages of them robbing smallfolk. I never contested that really, they're not fairy-tale knights in shining armour. But off the top of my head I can't remember book passages making them out to be religious zealots.

When they save the men who follow the faith of the seven and refuse to follow their rules under their roof? When Gendry refuses to pray to the seven? When they follow unCat who is clearly dead and been resurrected by the Lord of Light? Beric refusing to kill the Hound even after he comes back because the Lord of Light has plans for him?

There's a few passages that show that the people that follow Thoros, Beric and unCat are religious zealots, most people in the world of ice and fire are this way though, it's nothing personal with the BwBs. Most people they have strong faith, some faith or no faith other than mocking the gods.

The books make it pretty clear that Thoros isn't a religious zealot but his magic creates zealous followers in the Brotherhood, same with Melisandre and Queen's men. Thoros isn't trying to create zealots but the people naturally align themselves that way because they see it as proof that the fire god exists, when in this fantasy reality all it really proves is blood and fire sorcery works and is tied to dragons.

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Am I the only one who interpreted Mel’s response to finding out that Thoros could raise people from the dead as being incredulous? She knows this power exists but she gave me the impression that, more importantly, she cannot do it herself. That was just my initial reaction anyway.

“How is it you have this power?” I’ve always been under the impression from the books that a red priest could shadow bind or had resurrection magic, but never both. I feel like resurrection magic is rarer for whatever reason.

Also, I really don’t understand all the confusion of how Mel found Gendry. She saw him in her flames. We know there absolutely is something to her visions, even if they are at times misinterpreted. If we know a man can be resurrected six different times, why is it so difficult to believe that Mel could find someone with Stanis's blood in her flames?

As for Arya ...

I really enjoyed Arya's interaction with Mel. This was largely due to the fact that Mel seemed scared of her. We have yet to see Mel scared of anyone. Her comments about "eyes you will shut forever" are definitely referencing Arya's time with TFM. The "We will meet again" line is what I have replaying in my head over and over. I want to know what it means!

It could always just be a red herring.

But maybe not? I'm open to possibilities.

I will also say that the one thing that did upset me about this scene was that the BwB were so quick to give up Gendry but I think a lot of posters here made some very valid points about the BwB. I think I had blinders on when it came to them, seeing them as being more righteous than they were.

I don't think the Brotherhood is "good" so much as it is realistic and for the common man. As people have mentioned, they were fully prepared to rob Arya of her horses and selling her out to her family is still selling her out. Just because her destination is safer doesn't mean the end justifies the means.

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This was an interesting scene, but I am not sure how I feel about it yet. I think I need to watch it again. I hope that it is foreshadowing a plot point from WoW, that M and Arya will indeed meet again. I do hate thought that this likely means there will not be a Ghost of Highheart, but seeing as how they have stripped most of the prophesy stuff out of the show I cannot say I am surprised. I hope this also points to Gendry having more of a part to the story in the future. I really do like him, but I only want him to be important if GRRM deems him important, not because the show wants him to be important.

I understand this is an adaptation, but they still need to follow the main arc of the books. D&D take every opportunity to remind us that they are the ultimate book fans, so the show should reflect that. Even thought there has been more "original' content this season, I am ok with most of it because it fits with the spirit of the books. I cannot say yet that this scene with M, Arya, and Gendry fits because it is too far off from the story we know at this point. I suppose time will tell.

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