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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Gendry, Melisandre, Arya, etc.

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In the books Gendry feels handing off Brienne is not right, but he still does it, because it is how BwB operates.

Where is she hurt where Gendry can help it? How is it bad to help her to keep herself alive in the situations she is in?

Okay, this is getting beyond my grasp. I'll try to reign it in a little.

I don't think Gendry's decisions are totally wonderful and purely good from this point on. (This point being when he joins the Brotherhood). No characters' decisions are totally black or white in the books or in the show. If anything, Gendry is the perfect representative of what the BwB is. They mean to stand for justice and morality. However, we all know--as careful, analytical readers--that justice can sometimes be grey when it comes to morality. Just because it is justice, doesn't mean it is good or bad. That being said, I don't think that Gendry is all purely good.

I do, however, believe that this is the first instance where we actually see Gendry stand for something, and it isn't totally bad. Yes, he pretty much hands over Brienne because of the Brotherhood. Yet, his motivations for joining the Brotherhood and continuing with them are based on his morals, even if they don't always fit together. I just don't see this as corruption. I see this as an arch and as a learning experience for him. He's learning the difference between justice and morality.

And perhaps the Arya point wasn't a good one. I just meant to show that we have no real indication of his morals before this. At least we see him trying to live in a world where he thinks what he's doing is right.He's pretty much Robert's bastard and Arya's tag-along-by-chance-acquaintance up until this point.

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I see where you are coming from but I don't really agree. It would make sense if we had some sense of Gendry's moral compass to begin with. But really, in ACoK, we already see that he is a bit flaky and comfortable with just being a smith to whatever lord will have him, as long as it keeps him alive and well. Hell, Arya is in great distress and is brutalized every day and Gendry pretty much tells her to deal with it. I think that with the BwB, he actually shows true values for the first time. He may be with a group that has shady morals, but I think this moves lifts him up rather than brings him down.

I see where you're coming from but thinking that a smith that works for outlaws is better than a smith that works for a lord that keeps the king's peace then you're crazy.

Arya heard Tywin talking to the Mountain last season

Burn the villages, burn the farms, let them know what it means to choose the wrong side

The Lannisters are killing the common people trying to root out the BwB. It can be argued that the Brotherhood is not ultimately helping the common people though they claim they are.

She's seen people get tortured and killed because of the Brotherhood.

so again Gendry goes from a upstanding apprentice smith to a lawbreaking outlaw smith. I'd call it being corrupted though I suppose ultimately whoever wins the war will be the "good guys" because they will be the ones that will write the history of it. Whether they pardon the brotherhood or hang them all remains to be seen as well.

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I just meant to show that we have no real indication of his morals before this.

I disagree. From when we first meet him to the point where Arya escapes the BwB, he is hardworking and honest, he protects and helps.

We did not see as much of him as of the main characters, but what we saw was consistent and straigtforward. You could argue that it is not the only side of him and we just don't know, but the same can be said of any character then, and the discussion would never have any point.

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Something really intrigued me: Mel's conversation with Arya. Mainly the "We will meet again"

I feel there are implications on this line regarding the unreleased book 6 and Arya's future.

got exacly same feeling - a "mayheps" spoiler for book-worms

since we all still guessing whos Aryas target "mayheps" be - Mel is often considerd as a contestant - that way Arya ends up on the wall with Lord Snow .

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brown eyes, blue eyes and green eyes which will be shut forever by arya. who do you think those 3 unlucky ??

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got exacly same feeling - a "mayheps" spoiler for book-worms

since we all still guessing whos Aryas target "mayheps" be - Mel is often considerd as a contestant - that way Arya ends up on the wall with Lord Snow .

now my all money is on arya as jon's nissa.

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Well I still hold to my views, though you all have pretty valid arguments. I guess it just comes down to our opinions on whether intention in the face or something you cannot control is the same as action in the face of something you can, which is really an argument humanity has been having since the dawn of time. Or maybe I am just interested in a group that begins small to protect people and is slowly influenced by the world around them. There is an argument that Gendry, as a representative of the BwB, is corrupted (like the group is). But as a character judged solely based on his development, I just don't see it. But I'll let it drop because there isn't much more I can say about it. Frankly, he is confined to just a few chapters and it is hard to judge him based on that. I just hope that GRRM will make him a POV...this has been my dream for a few years now.

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Gendry standing in for Edric and Mel talking to Arya are weird twists. Simply because at this point so many things have changed from the book that we don't know where the show is heading. I mean, we all probably feel that some things will change from the text but the story will basically remain the same. Yet certain things are starting to unfold in the show that could affect the eventual story. By that I mean what hasn't been written yet. So, either the show knows things that we don't about future events, or they are just gonna try to make entertaining television and see how things play out. For example, capturing Gendry could prove to be insignificant if his story dwindles out (as it has so far), but there are many theories about him returning to prominence. If something happens to him now in the show it would put an end to that possibility. Maybe they don't show him for a while, but eventually he returns with Mel. Unless they are stopped in the process, in which case, what was the point? If he does stay with Mel then a resolution to his character that is not in the books must happen. Bah! All this is making me wish for a 12 part epic directed by Ken Burns that is true to the book...

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So in the books Gendry stayed with the BWB.

This scene certailny changes things. It wouldn't make much sense for Gendry to return the the Riverlands and the BWB after he's been taken to dragonstone, he certainly won't trust the BWB anymore. Clearly they mean to have Gednry replace Edric, but what will happen after that? Davos will be awesome and sway Stannis, but what will Gendry do after that, join with Stannis? So many implications from these changes and no idea where they will take us.

Secondly, Mel's line to Arya. Forshadowing that Arya will eventually return to Westeros? This comes to me as a sigh of relief, her storyline was really starting to bog down in Bravos.

Overall I'm ok with the changes, it gives Arya a more legitimate reason to run from the BWB than she had in the books. I'm just curious as to what they plan to do with Gendry after Stannis sides with Davos over Mel.

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This is the first time I feel like maybe I shoudn't watch the show anymore. I don't care if they change stuff on the show - it's a different medium and they have to run a show, etc, etc....but I feel like what Mellisandre said actually spoils the book - which IMO is BS. I wonder how GRRM feels about that...

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brown eyes, blue eyes and green eyes which will be shut forever by arya. who do you think those 3 unlucky ??

No way to know for sure, and seeing as how they changed all purple eyes to different colours on the show, maybe one of the three has purple eyes in the books but not on the show, in which case it adds even more possibilities. When I first heard Mel say that line, I thought it was just a general way of saying Arya would kill many people, not specifically three people with different eye colours.

I'm curious as to how Mel found Gendry and the BWB. Sacrificing Edric Storm was understandable because he was in Dragonstone, Mel was aware of him and knew he had king's blood, but very few people know of Gendry's existence and bloodline. We're just to assume that she looked into her fires and voila, the LoL just shows her the exact location where she can find a king's bastard? Now I've read the books twice and I may be wrong but I can't recall Melisandre ever being able to pinpoint someone exactly from her fires (as well as just randomly knowing they're a bastard).

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What Mel said to Arya could be foreshadowing, or it could simply be setting up Mel to look like a fool by making a wrong prediction (which she does several times in the books). Like I imagine it could go down like this:

1). We get a scene where the Kindly Man tells Arya that if she does not want to continue the FM training that he will find another place for her, maybe even book her passage on a ship to a place of her choosing (something like this does happen in the books, although I don't think the Kindly Man offers her passage on a ship).

2.) We are left on a cliffhanger as to whether or not Arya has taken the Kindly Man's offer. No more scenes from her for awhile to keep the suspense going.

3.) Mel then tells Jon about the "girl in grey on a dying horse" coming to Wall, and says that it is his sister. Because of what Mel had said previously, this leads the show audience (who, let's assume, were paying attention and remembered) to believe that Arya accepted the Kindly Man's offer and is going to Jon.

4.) The twist unfolds: Alys Karstark is revealed the be the "girl in grey", not Arya, who has chosen to stay with the FM and continue her training. The TV show plays with viewers expectations here the same way GRRM does with us in the books.

If it plays out like the above, then it's still possible for Mel to die in the fallout at the Wall like many speculate (including myself). Or I'm completely wrong and Mel will both survive the fallout and 1). Become a part of Jon's retinue and therefore be present when he meets Arya again or 2.) Go someplace in Essos after what happens at the Wall and serendipitously run into Arya. I'm kind of hoping neither of the latter two options happen, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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I could see a more immediate payoff to Mel's prophecy about Arya. She needs to get Needle back, so I'd guess that they'll bump into the Mountain's men after the RW and she'll kill one of them, noticing his eye colour. After that, who knows, but the mention of green eyes has me hoping she offs a Lannister.

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I wonder if that was a book spoiler about whom Arya's big assassination target will be. Maybe the FM will send her after Melisandre. (FM clearly are not on the side of dragons and fire.)

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I wonder if that was a book spoiler about whom Arya's big assassination target will be. Maybe the FM will send her after Melisandre. (FM clearly are not on the side of dragons and fire.)

Do you really think D&D are dump enough to put spoilers thru the series just because they know the ending?

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People online on this forum say that the shows have nothing to do with the books and that any changes or subjects being stressed in the show is superfluous to canon. But I don't know. You had the House of Undying - a massive part in the series, completely change. Dany almost touching the throne, but goes to the wall instead where she is reunited with Drogo and her son (Dany dies at the wall?). Now you have Mel prophesising meeting Arya again. Edric Storm clearly isn't important to the storyline now, which means he probably isn't in the books. And now this change with Gendry? Will Gendry go to the wall with Stannis? Does that mean Gendry ends up at the wall in the books? Argh!

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I could see a more immediate payoff to Mel's prophecy about Arya. She needs to get Needle back, so I'd guess that they'll bump into the Mountain's men after the RW and she'll kill one of them, noticing his eye colour. After that, who knows, but the mention of green eyes has me hoping she offs a Lannister.

I thought the changing eyes prophecy thing was her destiny to become a Faceless Man.

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I thought the changing eyes prophecy thing was her destiny to become a Faceless Man.

I thought that was about the different eye colours of the direwolves all within her too cause they are part of her pack.

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Do you really think D&D are dump enough to put spoilers thru the series just because they know the ending?

Yup. The show will end before the last book is out and we are getting massive spoilers.

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