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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] The Wall Climb Opinions and Tormund

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Thank you for that ! ;)

Despise for the genre, eh? :)

Probably a thing of women like it and guys don't. Just as the actor... any female viewers complaining about him? Heh....

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I didn't like the part with Orell cutting Jon loose. It was just too Indiana Jonesish to me.

It was, but it was also an interesting 'Touching the Void' moment: what Orell did was exacty what he should have done in that situation (had it been a real life climb) given that he and Tormund couldn't simply haul Jon and Ygritte up (which in the real world they would not have been able to do). Mind, not sure anyone in our world could have climbed such a sheer wall of ice with such primitive crampons and axes anyway and I'm not sure their belay points were that good either ...... ;)

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Most of you guys are so anti-romance. If you climbed a mountain with your new love and eventually got to the top and enjoyed a stunning view, wouldn't you be kissing? And what's so bad about "take my hand", what else was he supposed to say?

^^ Agree, how could you not kiss someone you love in that situation?

In addition, knowing the fate of their relationship, for me, it had a powerfully tragic and sad undercurrent. Jon and Ygritte's relationship is doomed and they know it, but they choose to forget that and share a beautiful and genuine moment together wile it still exists. The perfect bitter-sweet ending to an episode the series is known for.

Think back to Littlefinger's monologue where he say's "The climb is all there is". The last scene is basically saying there is more to life than that. There is love. A masterful counter point.

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I think it's better this way, because the sex wasn't about love. It was just something the free folk do without much reservation. The kiss, however, was more of a "falling for one another" type moment. Which is great, because it builds up some history for the two characters that will pull on the viewers later when Jon has to leave her and eventually finds her dead after the battle. I thought the whole scene was great and just like in the books, Jon's story, for me, is the most fun to watch.

Also, as far as Ygritte knowing that Jon hadn't turned his cloak yet, it also plays very well into their relationship and the fact that she's falling in love with him. She wants to believe that he's hers and that he will be loyal to her before all others.

I agree. Essentially, their love story is being delayed. In the books,they suddenly start having sex off-page, before the cave scene, which is the more romantic scene, Jon committing himself to Ygritte. In the show, the cave scene is retained but it's the first time they have sex, and it's not about romance: Ygritte uses sex to force Jon to choose her over the NW. And the after-climb scene was the equivalent of the romantic scene in the cave in the books.

Loved every scene with Jon, and I understand why they decided not to focus on Ygritte and him in the first part of the season. The final scene was uniquely epic and happy-ish: loved it.

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And the music as well as the partially cloudy, partially sunny sky also reflect a bitter-sweet theme. By the way, I wonder if the show creators got some of their inspiration for the wall scenes from the Swiss Eiger "north wall" (the famous north face of the mountain) for the climb and from the neighboring Jungfraujoch for the top of the wall scene. Lots of similarity, the way they walked from the view down to the colder side over to the view down the other, greener side with just a few steps.

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I'm on board with the Jon/Ygritte changes too at this point, because it makes it all the more poignant when it all goes tits up. Ygritte's death was heartbreaking in the books, but I think it would be even better in the show because of how they made it. And it's such an important step towards who Jon ends up to be, I'm finally looking forward to Jon's storyline now.

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Because he doesn't act out emotions very often? He once described Jon as an emotionally stunted person, so I think he intentionally portrays him as somber, quiet, introverted, often just giving a serious look with an unmoved face. I prefer his style over the style of actors who overact their characters, which for example Alfie Allen sometimes does with Theon when he opens his eyes extra wide or looks overly angry, etc.

He also described him as shortsighted and not very smart. I believe he's got the wrong perspective on Jon and it hurts his portrayal.

He's also the victim of some poor writing.

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It was, but it was also an interesting 'Touching the Void' moment: what Orell did was exacty what he should have done in that situation (had it been a real life climb) given that he and Tormund couldn't simply haul Jon and Ygritte up (which in the real world they would not have been able to do). Mind, not sure anyone in our world could have climbed such a sheer wall of ice with such primitive crampons and axes anyway and I'm not sure their belay points were that good either ...... ;)

It is known.

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He also described him as shortsighted and not very smart. I believe he's got the wrong perspective on Jon and it hurts his portrayal.

He's also the victim of some poor writing.

what? Damn. Jon's character is screwed. Jon Snow is probably the smartest of the Starks. Granted, that's not saying much, but still.

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He also described him as shortsighted and not very smart. I believe he's got the wrong perspective on Jon and it hurts his portrayal.

He's also the victim of some poor writing.

Really? I haven't heard that. From his interviews, I always got the impression that he feels rather close to the character and sees similarities between himself and the character insofar as they are both introverts who worry a lot.

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He also described him as shortsighted and not very smart. I believe he's got the wrong perspective on Jon and it hurts his portrayal.

He's also the victim of some poor writing.

I'm not sure Kit Harington has stated he thinks Jon is dumb. RE: the writing, I agree they could have to date given viewers more of the same glimpse into Jon's thinking the books have. It's tough, as with all the POV characters, to get into their heads on screen without a cheesy voice over.

For Jon, there are two additional issues. Unlike many of the other POVs, he's an introvert, so by nature he doesn't speak much in the books. We KNOW he's smart and a good guy based on what we see about his thought process in addition to his actions. However, his actions don't really kick up a notch until he becomes LC, and we see his planning ability and foresight. Up to now on the show, we've seen Jon save Mormont from the reanimated guy, kill Qhorin, and now make it up the wall. Like the books, not much.

The other big show vs. book issue is Jon's age-up for the show. In the books, we see him as a sullen teenager who quickly grows up as LC. The sullen teen thing obviously doesn't quite work for a Jon who looks to be in his twenties.

I think given these issues, I am more than happy with show Jon. I'd expect we will see better and more Jon action with Queenscrown, the first Castle Black battle, and of course eventually as LC.

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Visually stunning scene, although I could have done without the goofy long kiss at the end.

I too am shocked by the ongoing absence of jokes related to Tormund's member. We know the writers aren't shy about discussing/showing private parts. I expected them to be all about the member comments.

So, a kiss after a near death experience is goofy, but a bunch of penis jokes is A-OK?

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I agree with Jay and Tirelei. I got the impression from kit that he takes his character seriously and actually enjoys the books, he was talking in an interview about reviewing them multiple times before shooting each season which obviously is not mandatory but I think it reflects his commitment. That said, Jon is a melancholy, quiet person who sort of has a chip on his shoulder, and I think Kit nails it. Like Jay said, we aren't in his head in the series, as we are in the books, so outwardly all we are seeing is a guy with a somber personality. We don't get the insight into his intelligence and motivation as we do in the books.

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I'm not sure Kit Harington has stated he thinks Jon is dumb. RE: the writing, I agree they could have to date given viewers more of the same glimpse into Jon's thinking the books have. It's tough, as with all the POV characters, to get into their heads on screen without a cheesy voice over.

For Jon, there are two additional issues. Unlike many of the other POVs, he's an introvert, so by nature he doesn't speak much in the books. We KNOW he's smart and a good guy based on what we see about his thought process in addition to his actions. However, his actions don't really kick up a notch until he becomes LC, and we see his planning ability and foresight. Up to now on the show, we've seen Jon save Mormont from the reanimated guy, kill Qhorin, and now make it up the wall. Like the books, not much.

The other big show vs. book issue is Jon's age-up for the show. In the books, we see him as a sullen teenager who quickly grows up as LC. The sullen teen thing obviously doesn't quite work for a Jon who looks to be in his twenties.

I think given these issues, I am more than happy with show Jon. I'd expect we will see better and more Jon action with Queenscrown, the first Castle Black battle, and of course eventually as LC.

They should have kept Ghost with him and given Jon an outlet to vent his feelings.

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I had no problems with the kiss. Yes, it was cheesy. Yes, it screamed Hollywood. But come on people this IS Television! and the show was lacking a good romance. After an almost death experience it would make perfect sense for the two lovebirds to share a kiss, and the lanscape was beautiful. The kiss was perfect television-wise. Even I (an anti romantic, whose heart is made of stone according to my friends) felt something with that kiss, specially knowing what's coming (Ygritte's death). Besides, so far in this season Ygritte and Jon have had what two romantic scenes? The cave, and the litlle glance of Ygritte when she took him to Mance.... that's it, I think. They needed to add that kiss and more romance to make it more tragic when she dies.

However, I didn't like that Jon is more afraid of climbing the Wall than Ygritte. The beautiful thing about Jon and Ygritte's relationship is that it is pretty even and healthy. They both learn from each other. At the begining, they both are afraid of each other's world, but then they start realizing that is not that bad. Wouldn't it have been better to see badass Ygritte afraid of something just for once? To see Jon conforting and reassuring her? To see that wildlings are just as afraid of the south of the Wall as the people in the south are afraid of the north of the Wall? I mean she's never even seen the danm Wall. Wildlings hate the Wall. I would have loved to see that contrast of perspectives that these two worlds have about the Wall, and I would have loved a mention of the Horn of Joramun :(

I'm glad that Tormund is finally getting more colorful. His little Har! (well it was more a Hah!, but close enough) made me sooooo happy! But I would like him to tell some stories.

My other problem is Kit. I wasn't convinced with him in season one, and I'm still not convinced. He's acting is very bad IMO.

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From the moment she was no longer his prisoner up to now, she protected him and she was the one driving the course of events. But now they are in "his territory" and it shows when he kisses her (instead of her kissing him in the cave) and puts his arm around her. Like "this is my world down there, and I'll be the protector now."

YES YES YES this is exactly what I thought when watching it its a strong scene but people are over looking it because it has some cliche or cheesy factors to it :/

Liked it, though Jon pulling Ygritte up seemed a bit too much. I mean, isn't the wall slippery? Doesn't seem possible to pull someone up like that! I loved how Ygritte killed 2 parties who were climbing so far away, that was quite unexpected and somewhat amusing.

oh gods yeah that moment when the ice starts cracking and suddenly grow huge, har, the look on her face is priceless!

It seems out of place because they have butchered Jon's story and the Wildlings as a people. Had his 'conversion' to them been convincing, had them as a people worthy of 'conversion' made it justifiable, and had the relationship with Ygritte had any more depth than "Now we are shagging. Now we in luvs 4eva" then the scene would have fit so much more. It really should have been seen as a great new hope for Jon and his new people the Wildlings but because the development has not been carried out, the justification for an emotional connection can't be made.

I actually like the scene, but I don't expect anyone else to.

I agree with everything about this ^ ive been very disappointed with the sheer slaughter of Jons story line. I really loved his progression to falling for Ygritte its one of my favourite and most heart wrenching parts of the book series so far for me. (clearly by my name I a quite a fan of J&Y) they have cheapened it so much through the adaption that it saddens me my non reading friends cant understand the whole process as it unfolds.

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You can't deny that TV Tormund has one hell of a voice as well!

oh my goodness I melted the first time I heard him talking in the tent.. I was like "oh steal me Tormund!"

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