[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

[TomBadgerlock]

• that he went on and told her with Shae in the room (please, he could have insisted on being alone with Sansa, though I read another poster who said they thought this was a set up for Shae's jealousy to be built up to the point where she'd later testify against Tyrion)
  

He could have insisted but why deliberately insult his lover? And, yes, I'd say that is not only possible but extremely likely.

[greensleeves]

yeah I sense (and have already seen a lot of) "nice guy" syndrome coming regarding tyrion and sansa's behavior towards him. so tired of it.

:agree:

It's super disgusting.

I've also seen a lot of derision towards Sansa for being excited by the Loras marriage, but truthfully that was a relatively good option for her. She had reason to hope for it. Instead people have just been calling her an idiot. It seems like they've forgotten about Sansa's position as a prisoner.

They have completely cut out the fact she was beaten relentlessly and had to deal with Cersei until the BBW and was spoken to by no one and treated like a pariah, unable to mourn her father and surrounded by spies. Seriously they have mucked up her character and whole arc.

Edit: Unless we have got it wrong and the scene was Tyrion telling her about Bran and Rickon's deaths. Something we didn't see in the books, which would have been a good change for the show.

Yes, Sansa's trials are much less apparent in the show, or even absent. I like her friendship with Shae, but it does take away from her complete social isolation.

I think it's pretty clear that Tyrion was telling her about their engagement (the looks with Shae, the conversation with Cersei immediately beforehand, and Sansa's longing look at Littlefinger's boat are all evidence of it).

The "who's got it worse" game is relevant to how people are going to determine who is worthy of great sympathy. Sure, some folks who identify with Sansa for some particular reason may feel more for her, but to a lot of other folks who will compare her situation to that of her other family members and 90% of Westerosi, she doesn't have it all that bad. So to see her blubbering as LF's ship sales away....eh, eye-rolling territory for me.

I think that this is one reason why editing out that scene takes away from Sansa's arc. In the books, the scene between Sansa and Cersei emphasizes Sansa's continued ill will towards the Lannisters (thus also reinforcing her loyalty to her own family) as well as her powerlessness. It also clearly shows that Sansa is being put in a position where she is expected to be repeatedly raped.

With the scene cut it's easier to overlook.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

And another thing about this whole plot change - It was Littlefinger's ship she watched sail away, right? So what the hell do they plan on doing with Sansa down the line? Because obviously her going with Petyr was huge in the books, so unless he comes back for her...?

Which means if he comes back for her it will be exactly what he did in the books(except it looks like he will actually go to the Vale before coming back, absolutely not a problem for LF and his TARDIS.)

Since the QoT refuses the marriage, Loras is named as a Kingsguard member and the Tyrell's plans to marry Sansa to him are gone anyway. Since Loras is only Tyrell male/heir in the show, there was no real need for a secret shotgun wedding once he was removed from the picture.

The QoTs didn't refuse the marriage, she refused to let Tywin name Loras to the Kingsguard and accepted the marriage proposal.

I think you're getting really confused. The show made Loras the oldest male Tyrell, they've left the door open for him to have younger brothers, even with Tywin's comment, Tywin still considers Jaime his oldest son and heir even though he's in the Kingsguard and he just gave the Queen of Thorns that speech. Unreliable narrator possibly, though he does seem to think that Loras doesn't have any younger brothers.

That is probably confusing because everyone knows from the books that Loras does in fact join the Kingsguard, so I'm not sure how that part will play out since on the show he's supposedly the only heir to highgarden (which I object to the change).

We know he has a sister, apparently Tywin doesn't think he has any younger brothers so he's not the only heir to Highgarden.

I agree that it is a little confusing right now as to why Loras still isn't in the KG. The only explanation I can think of at this point is that, while the QoT has accepted the match, Loras still hasn't.

There's not much he can do about it, Loras has to marry and have children.

It does seem interesting that in this same episode we get a line from Edmure saying that no man can be forced to marry against his will (or something along those lines).

He brings up the Laws of God's and Men. Basically since Edmure is Lord of Riverrun, there's no one that can force him to marry anyone. I'm not so sure that Lords can't arrange marriages for their younger brothers and sisters. (Sansa/Joffrey) arranged by their fathers. (Arya/Emmond Frey) arranged by Robb(acting Lord of Winterfell(Ned was still alive at this point)) and Walder Frey.

Again also not sure about the rules once a man comes of age. They probably get the choice of marriage assuming they haven't already been betrothed by their father/lord etc.

Perhaps when Loras is presented with the offer/threat he chooses the KG rather than Cersei. That would, IMHO anyway, be in line with his character afterall.

Again KG is not the NIght's Watch. It's not something he can just voluntarily join to get out of his marriage. Cersei is the mother of someone that can name a member to the Kingsguard though.

I disagree. Reintroducing Dontos to Sansa as a potential way to help her escape, and her subsequently trusting him, could be passed off easily as an example of her increasing sense of desperation to escape Kings Landing and the Lannisters. She wants to escape, she needs to escape, and her trusting a drunk fool is an example of just how desperate she is to try to do that.

We'll just have to see how it plays out, there was a theory that Ros would help Sansa escape and I'm pretty sure that theory died in this weeks episode. I suppose it could be Shae but how she got warned about LF and now Ros is dead would probably not make her trust LF.

I think Dantos might make a comeback.

I think Talisa will take fake Arya's part

Talisa has no claim to Winterfell, unless she's bearing Robb's child.

But on an other topic:

All who say Sansa could be seen as 'ungratefull' whatsoever I think she was told in the show so we can get a scene with her where it is explained. Her thoughts out of the book they can't show otherwise can be shown, so the viewers can understand her feeling and why the marriage is so horrible for her at the moment

:agree:

Maybe Cersei convinces Joffrey to draw up the order for Loras to join the KG? That would be a nice F-- you to both her father AND the Tyrells.

:agree:

Agree totally about the whitewashing of both Tyrion and Cersei. Gone are the days when I could look upon Cersei as a real 'villain'. Now I just see a childish spoiled rich girl looking to her father to solve everything, and not at all fit to control that monster she calls her son.

I don't think Cersei doesn't become a true villian until after her father's death.

And the way they make Tyrion out to be so noble and chivalrous. I hope they at least show one scene with him where he admits that he thinks favourably on the prospect of ruling Winterfell, but I doubt they'll make him say anything that selfish (because hey, who cares if it shows he's an actual 'human being' and not some perfect hero out of the stories who just happens to be a dwarf?). It's like they're taking all the grey out [of two richly defined characters.

Tyrion and his father have already both explained that Sansa has an old name, she's heir to Winterfell etc. I think Tyrion will have to explain that he's going to go through with the marriage in order to escape KL and possibly rule Winterfell. The question is will Shae be happy to go to Winterfell with her Lion?

Why don't they realize that part of GRRM's genius is that he can write complex, not-completely-heroic characters that we love to read about.

Do you realize that there's nothing to read on this show except subtitles of Darthaki and Valyrian

Even if people hate Cersei, that just shows that her character generates enough of a strong reaction to produce that amount of hate. Normal Complete Monster types of characters (like Joffrey or Gregor Clegane) could never produce that amount of hate. They're just not interesting enough. So why on earth are they adding to Joffrey's atrocities just to try and downplay Cersei's craziness? We already know he's a monster. Giving him more screentime is not necessary to point that out.

If I had to guess it might be so they can show how the loss of her family changes her to a much darker character. We don't get a Cersei POV until Feast for Crows.

[alexislalas]

Hey guys, new here, first post! So I don't know if somebody already told the following theory:

Maybe Tyrion told Sansa that Cersei was goint to marry Loras instead of her, not necessarily that he was going to wed Sansa.

Just a thought.

[sansatyrell]

Hey guys, new here, first post! So I don't know if somebody already told the following theory:

Maybe Tyrion told Sansa that Cersei was goint to marry Loras instead of her, not necessarily that he was going to wed Sansa.

Just a thought.

(I can't say I've read every post, so I don't know if that theory's been discussed but)

It's an interesting thought, but I definitely think Tyrion told Sansa they were going to get married based on Sansa's tears afterwards. Maybe he happened to tell about Cersei as well, but at that point I don't think it matters - really just adding insult to injury.

[Envie]

Hey guys, new here, first post! So I don't know if somebody already told the following theory:

Maybe Tyrion told Sansa that Cersei was goint to marry Loras instead of her, not necessarily that he was going to wed Sansa.

Just a thought.

Your thought crossed my mind as well after I watched the episode again. I thought to myself, "Maybe they're just making it look like Tyrion told her he's marrying her when in fact he told her that Loras has to wed Cersei instead" - either news would make her pretty upset and sad she didn't take LF up on his offer and she'd still stand there crying as his ship left the harbor, right?

The only thing that makes me think he DID in fact tell her he has to marry her is the bit he said about "Sometimes we want to hear things and then later wished we had heard in totally different circumstances" which was clearly in reference to Shae's insistence on staying in the room and Sansa allowing her to stay. If Tyrion was telling her something other than what he knew was also going to upset Shae, he would not have given that big hint, I think.

[Khal Porno]

I thought it was too bad that they didn't show how he actually told her. That would have been a good scene for them to act. For all three of them actually.

This was my thought as well. That could have been an awesome scene.

[alexislalas]

Also, I really hated how they handled this issue, as not being the surprise for Sansa in the book as Cersei prepares her for the wedding with Tyrion.

[Newstar]

When you think about it, though, it makes sense that they cut Tyrion telling Shae and Sansa that she's to marry him and that Cersei is to marry Loras instead. Sansa would have been upset at learning that she wasn't to marry Loras, sure, but she wouldn't have been devastated yet, since she would still mentally be falling back to the original plan to escape King's Landing, which is asking Littlefinger to take her with him. Her reaction wouldn't be as emotional as we would otherwise expect, since she would still be thinking that she had a possible out (in the form of Littlefinger). She would be all "Yeah, yeah, sure, we'll get married, Tyrion, whatever you say, now if you'll excuse me..." Heck, Tyrion would likely be thinking after the conversation that she took the news fairly well, but of course it would only be because at the time she thought she had a way out of the marriage. It's only later, when she's looking out at the ship sailing away, that she understands that she's completely screwed and that she has no way of escaping King's Landing or an unwanted marriage, and that's when the waterworks start.

I suspect we'll see more about Sansa's reaction to the engagement in 3x07. Maybe some of her internal pre-wedding dialogue about how they only want her for her claim (assuming she realizes this or someone points it out), she doesn't want any Lannister, she wants Loras (Willas in the books), etc. etc. will be "externalized" in the form of dialogue with another character, much like Tyrion's "I was wed" to Tywin in 3x05 (never spoken in the books). Or we might get a part of Cersei's dialogue with Sansa before the wedding about Tyrion being a loathsome little imp, etc. etc. although it will lose a bit of its punch now that Sansa has advance warning of the wedding (as opposed to the ambush in the books).

[Tirilei]

Is the ship really sailing away? I thought it was anchored in the bay and that she was looking at it because she is reconsidereing.

[sastelise]

Didn't TV Tywin already tell TV Tyrion that he'll never inherit Casterly rock? I can't remember, but if he did, then Tyrion's objections about the marriage are only pretense ("she's just a child!"). Like in the books, he has a lot to gain by wedding Sansa. In his POV in the books he admits to being attracted to Sansa for Winterfell as much as for her beauty. Maybe the show is playing down his desire and greed and making it look as if Tyrion's objections are that of a nice guy. But how nice is he gonna look after the RW, when Tyrion does nothing to help Sansa go home? Though he's not completely free either, he has money and intelligence enough to set Sansa free and have their marriage annulled. At a certain point even TV viewers will have to recognize that Tyrion has his own interests, that he's not entirely forced into the marriage, and that he's not the heroic good guy, no?

[sansatyrell]

I suspect we'll see more about Sansa's reaction to the engagement in 3x07. Maybe some of her internal pre-wedding dialogue about how they only want her for her claim (assuming she realizes this or someone points it out), she doesn't want any Lannister, she wants Loras (Willas in the books), etc. etc. will be "externalized" in the form of dialogue with another character, much like Tyrion's "I was wed" to Tywin in 3x05 (never spoken in the books). Or we might get a part of Cersei's dialogue with Sansa before the wedding about Tyrion being a loathsome little imp, etc. etc. although it will lose a bit of its punch now that Sansa has advance warning of the wedding (as opposed to the ambush in the books).

I hope you're right! We did see a flash of Sansa in the preview for ep7, so hopefully we'll get some meaningful scenes from her digesting/absorbing/discussing the news

[Newstar]

Is the ship really sailing away? I thought it was anchored in the bay and that she was looking at it because she is reconsidereing.

Nope, the ship is sailing away. She is sobbing because the ship--representing her only remaining shot at escaping the city she hates so much (as we're reminded again in this episode in the Loras/Sansa scene)--has literally and figuratively sailed. Also, Littlefinger talks about those who fall (Ros) and those who "refuse to climb" (Sansa, rejecting Littlefinger's offer of aid in favour of Loras). There are also parallels between Ros and Sansa in 3x06 and the closing monologue/montage, in that both moved against Littlefinger, their supposed benefactor, by pursuing more attractive options (Varys' protection/marriage to Loras and escape to Highgarden), and that he ruthlessly screwed them over in retaliation (feeding Ros to Joffrey as punishment for betraying his plans to Varys/selling Sansa out to the Lannisters and then fleeing before Sansa could do anything about it, punishing her for turning him down in favour of Loras and the Tyrells). The parallel doesn't hold up if Sansa still has a shot at escaping King's Landing (for the moment, anyway).

Didn't TV Tywin already tell TV Tyrion that he'll never inherit Casterly rock? I can't remember, but if he did, then Tyrion's objections about the marriage are only pretense ("she's just a child!").

It's hard to know the final TV show word on TV Tyrion's feelings about the marriage. I expect Shae and Tyrion will have some sort of blowout in 3x07 about the engagement, so there might be a bit more as to TV Tyrion's real feelings on the matter: whether he wants to be lord of Winterfell, whether he likes the idea of Sansa as a wife, and so on. It's a bit early at this stage to come to any conclusions. I will say that as of the end of 3x06, there's been nothing in the show so far to suggest that TV Tyrion has any interest whatsoever in Sansa's beauty or in her claim. The suggestion seems to be on the show that he's being coerced (unlike in the books, where he was persuaded with Winterfell as the lure), that he is absolutely certain that the marriage is going to be a total disaster (unlike in the books, where he held out some hope that it wouldn't), and that he has zero interest in Sansa as a bride (unlike in the books). Again, that could change, depending on what's said or what remains unsaid in 3x07, but this seems to be the TV version of events.

I hope you're right! We did see a flash of Sansa in the preview for ep7, so hopefully we'll get some meaningful scenes from her digesting/absorbing/discussing the news

There was a flash of Sansa, looking pissed (and crying, if you look at a high-quality screencap of that scene in the promo). I'm guessing she finally swallows the bitter pill that the Lannisters are and the Tyrells were only interested in her claim. There's been no indication to date on the show either that she's aware that she has a potential claim or that it is the reason the Tyrells were pursuing her as a bride, but this understanding is a big part of her thought process in the books. I wouldn't be surprised if we had a scene where she finally realized this (although for some reason I doubt that Loras' sexuality will be made clear to her).

The last time GRRM wrote Sansa (2x09), she seemed a little sharper, more poised and more aware than she usually does in the TV show, so maybe her characterization will be a little different in 3x07 as well. We shall see.

[Tirilei]

I've also seen a lot of derision towards Sansa for being excited by the Loras marriage, but truthfully that was a relatively good option for her. She had reason to hope for it.

True. At least Loras is friendly towards her. Given her situation, that's a lot better than anything she has had so far. When they sit together in the park, he seems to get serious for a moment when she mentions getting away from that place, and he responds "it's a terrible place, isn't it?" For a moment it actually sounded as if he understands and as if they could develop friendship and understanding for each other. In the days of forced marriages, for a woman to marry a gay man with whom she has friendship, trust, mutual respect and understanding would have been a lot better than many other options. Many aristocrats kept their concubines and only "visited" their wives to produce an heir but otherwise took no interest in them.

[Raksha the Demon]

True. At least Loras is friendly towards her. Given her situation, that's a lot better than anything she has had so far. When they sit together in the park, he seems to get serious for a moment when she mentions getting away from that place, and he responds "it's a terrible place, isn't it?" For a moment it actually sounded as if he understands and as if they could develop friendship and understanding for each other. In the days of forced marriages, for a woman to marry a gay man with whom she has friendship, trust, mutual respect and understanding would have been a lot better than many other options. Many aristocrats kept their concubines and only "visited" their wives to produce an heir but otherwise took no interest in them.

I actually liked the Loras/Sansa scene. They were two rather different young people suddenly facing a marriage; and trying to bridge the strangeness. Loras was actually trying to be nice and reach out to Sansa; and Sansa dared to let him know how she disliked King's Landing. Not saying a marriage between them would have definitely worked; since I think Sansa might have been squicked/freaked out by Loras' preferring men to her; but it would have had a chance (she could have also continued to be grateful that she was Mrs. Loras in Highgarden rather than a Lannister hostage in KL; and if Loras managed to sire a couple of kids, they could have bonded over them).

Now Sansa has hope snatched away from her again while she's bound even tighter to the Lannisters. :crying: The poor girl just can't catch a break!

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And yet people feel bad for emo Jon, who despite being raised better then 99% of Westeros and is in safer conditions then all of his siblings....

I'm not a huge fan of him either, but you're overlooking the part of him being north of the Wall, surrounded by enemies who would gladly kill him, tasked with spending the rest of his life on a frozen wall fighting wildings and Others in conditions no better than that of the dregs who are likewised sentence to a life with the NW, with no hope of love or family unless he breaks his vow and suffers a lifelong death sentence....

Not to mention that unlike Sansa being a member of the high nobility (and therefore generally better off than 95% of Westerosi), Jon is not a member of the nobility.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

It's confounding that they've made Tyrion such a passive character this season (forced into marraige instead of convinced) and that is a knock on Sansa, yet here, its supposedly making Tyrion more of a 'swell guy'.

I don't think there was much of a difference at all. There was nothing in the show where Tyrion was actually forced. He did agree to it, just as he did in the books.

The real argument as to this making Tyrion a bad guy is essentially that he's agreeing to an arranged marriage. But that is common among Westerosi nobility. It happens all the time, and you do it because that's what your family says your supposed to do. There is nothing remotely wrong under Westerosi customs with Tyrion agreeing to that, which is why many readers don't view him as a bad guy for accepting.

Where some readers -- including me -- view him as an affirmatively good guy on this issue is that considering his position, him objecting to something that he could easily accept is notable. He's ugly, not attractive to women, and he knows it. Sansa Stark is so much of a better "catch" than he could have ever hoped for that logic says he should have done what other any other member of Westerosi nobility would have done, and leapt on the chance. That would be the norm for Westeros.

Instead, his immediate reaction is to argue against it, saying it would be unfair to Sansa, that she deserves someone closer to her own age, and that he personally would prefer marrying someone who cares for him rather than someone who doesn't. As compared to what others in his position, in that culture, would have done, Tyrion's consideration of her feelings is noble even if his father eventually convinces him that he should. Life has dealt both of them a shitty hand in that respect (though as nobility, they're still better off overall), so he's doing the best he can with what he's been dealt.

[Guest]

Seems to me like people are forgetting a couple things about the original material. Tyrion makes it clear in the book that he absolutely does not want to marry Sansa, and his father DOES order him to marry her. That happened. The choice Tyrion has is not to spare Sansa marriage entirely (and I'm going to put this next bit in spoiler tags) but to:

either marry Sansa himself or watch as she is forcibly married to someone else. Tyrion himself talks to Sansa and offers to go immediately to his father and demand that she be married to Lancel if that is what she wants. He knows he can't stop the wedding, he can't prevent her from marrying a Lannister. There is no grand gesture on his part that can save her (short of outright treason that ends with him dead), he said his piece and his father blew him off. He offers her the choice of someone he knows to be reasonably decent (if a Lannister) and more in her age. She chooses Tyrion because she knows him to be kind.

Considering this, claims that he married her purely for greed kind of fall flat, because of what he was willing to do.

I do disagree with them leaving out chucks of Tyrion's character, such as what he was forced to do to Tysha in the books, but in this I think they stayed pretty true. He tried to prevent her from marrying him because he believed he was unworthy of her, because he thought she would hate him, and because she is a child and he believed it cruel. Whatever else you think of Tyrion, it's made pretty clear he did not want this for Sansa but (at this point in the story) can see no way out.

And, I think we can all agree that Tyrion, whatever his faults, was better option for her than Joffery.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

either marry Sansa himself or watch as she is forcibly married to someone else. Tyrion himself talks to Sansa and offers to go immediately to his father and demand that she be married to Lancel if that is what she wants. He knows he can't stop the wedding, he can't prevent her from marrying a Lannister. There is no grand gesture on his part that can save her (short of outright treason that ends with him dead), he said his piece and his father blew him off. He offers her the choice of someone he knows to be reasonably decent (if a Lannister) and more in her age. She chooses Tyrion because she knows him to be kind.

Forgot that, and it's a great point.

And, I think we can all agree that Tyrion, whatever his faults, was better option for her than Joffery.

Didn't Garlan Tyrell also state that Tyrion would not be a bad choice because he was a good man?

[Rhaegarsjoy]

A lannister is still a lannister.