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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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Anyone else really annoyed with how they had Tyrion tell Sansa? What made the arranged marriage even more awful was the fact that it was SPRUNG on Sansa and she literally tried to fight it. I'm trying to figure out where they're going with that - does it serve a specific purpose or was it just a random change?

(there were a lot of changes to the plot that I didn't like in this episode tbh...)

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Eh, I didn't mind. We don't know for sure that he told her but I can't imagine anything else he would say after that awkward way he said "awkward."

In the book it's revealed pretty early that Tywin plans it and sure, Sansa isn't told until everything is prepared, but the surprise element is already on the audience. Might as well make it easier for the girl who has already been through hell so far.

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Yeah, it is extremely annoying as it seems like they are diminishing her tragedy in order to insure he still looks good.

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I thought it was too bad that they didn't show how he actually told her. That would have been a good scene for them to act. For all three of them actually.

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Remind me if I've forgotten, but wasn't the whole thing done as a 'setup' in the books by Olenna and Margaery with Sansa in the first place? I mean, wasn't Sansa cruelly laughed at for thinking she was going to marry Loras when in fact they had really meant the only one Sansa would end up marrying was the crippled one (Garland?)... and it was really mean because of course Sansa's a fool. Maybe I'm confused and not remembering the read or who was actually the one to break the news to Sansa that she was marrying Tyrion.

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Maybe I'm confused and not remembering the read or who was actually the one to break the news to Sansa that she was marrying Tyrion.

It was Cersei like ten minutes before the wedding under the threat of beatings if Sansa doesn't comply.

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Remind me if I've forgotten, but wasn't the whole thing done as a 'setup' in the books by Olenna and Margaery with Sansa in the first place? I mean, wasn't Sansa cruelly laughed at for thinking she was going to marry Loras when in fact they had really meant the only one Sansa would end up marrying was the crippled one (Garland?)... and it was really mean because of course Sansa's a fool.

No, she wasn't laughed at by the Tyrells. In the very first meeting Margaery and Olenna told her Loras would not make a good husband and reminded of him being or planning to be a Kingsguard. They then talked about Wyllas (the heir), who is, yes, supposed to have a lame leg, but also seems to be considered smart and kind.

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yes in book it was Cersei who pretty much gloated over the fact that she was to marry her wretched brother....and the tyrells didn't so much as laugh at her ...but simply remind her that she couldn't marry a kingsguard......this is when Sansa was given the harsh reality that nobody wanted to marry her because of her looks and courtesy....but for her name and title and possible right to winterfell.

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They are ruining Tyrion. They are making him wayyyyy too much into Ned #2 instead of the Tyrion from the novels. Its starting to piss me off...

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No, she wasn't laughed at by the Tyrells. In the very first meeting Margaery and Olenna told her Loras would not make a good husband and reminded of him being or planning to be a Kingsguard. They then talked about Wyllas (the heir), who is, yes, supposed to have a lame leg, but also seems to be considered smart and kind.

Right. Thanks for reminding me how that story went, I have forgotten a lot of the side plots. So they've left out Wyllas entirely and made Loras the -only- heir to Highgarden if we're to believe the conversation between Olenna and Tywin (which I guess we have to believe)... That means Loras going into the Kingsguard will still be of his own choosing and not because Tywin or someone else forces him to? I'm SO confused with this story arc. I guess I thought Sansa's humiliation in thinking she would marry Loras was more significant in the books and then revealed to be nothing since they did in fact intend to marry her to him in the show. But of course now everything's changed so it's confusing!

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Loras was already in the Kingsguard. Sansa thought for a second they were talking about him but the QoT was like "nope, he's Kingsguard. I meant Wyllas." They weren't mean about it.

I do think it's sad Sansa finds out right before the wedding but it would seem like Tyrion being unnecessarily cruel for not even warning her.

That said, I REALLY hope they get across that Sansa isn't being "a whiny brat" for not welcoming her kind and genteel husband.

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It depends if you enjoy the more morally white Tyrion or not.

Also, the show wanted to end with Littlefinger gloating and how his chaos is pushing Sansa into his hands.

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In the books Tyrion tells Sansa that he wanted to talk with her ahead of time but doesn't get the chance, thus since he has the chance now in the show he does tell her.

In the show it seems likely that this wedding will be the wedge that separates Shae from Tyrion. At least it seems that way, we'll have to see Shae's reaction next episode I suppose but given that earlier scene between the two of them I can't imagine her taking it as well as she does in the books.

I think they are making it drawn out this way to show that Margaery wasn't truly befriending Sansa and the rest of the Tyrell's just let her get thrown under a bus. It gives her a chance to have a scene with Loras about his "unwanted" marriage and they can both say truthfully that they'd both rather marry eachother than what they were given instead.

It also gives Sansa a chance to accept the Halfman is better than Joffrey, even though she was excited about Loras. It will give her a chance to grow a lot seeing the Tyrell's for what they truly were, only trying to take her claim.

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I'm glad someone started a thread about this. I'll just reiterate what I said in the general episode discussion.

I think that this is part of the continued whitewashing of Tyrion's character.

In the books the difference between Tyrion's choices and Sansa's are made clear. Tyrion is persuaded into the marriage. They don't even bother to tell Sansa ahead of time, and when the big day comes she is told she'll be beaten and dragged before the altar if she's uncooperative.

In the show they've made it look like they have the same level of choice.

In the show we have both Tyrion and Sansa just being told they'll be married (presumably we didn't get to see Sansa's scene), and then they are both unhappy about it.

And yet their positions are different because Tyrion *does* have a choice. He is not a prisoner. This is clear in the books, and is made even clearer when contrasted with Sansa's treatment on the matter.

I thought it was too bad that they didn't show how he actually told her. That would have been a good scene for them to act. For all three of them actually.

:agree:

Of course this may have meant actually witnessing Tyrion being cruel. Do we think he spelled it out for her like Book!Cersei did?

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In the books Tyrion tells Sansa that he wanted to talk with her ahead of time but doesn't get the chance, thus since he has the chance now in the show he does tell her.

Tyrion was lying seeing he had weeks when he could have told her and never put any effort to do so.

It also gives Sansa a chance to accept the Halfman is better than Joffrey, even though she was excited about Loras. It will give her a chance to grow a lot seeing the Tyrell's for what they truly were, only trying to take her claim.

I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to pump up Tyrion as the most wonderful character ever seeing how that seems to be the only thing they do with him.

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I was actually really surprised that they had Tyrion tell Sansa. It seemed like the surprise moment in the books was almost intentionally "made-for-tv" with the fast pacing and dramatic surprise. I don't really care that Tyrion tells Sansa...it just seems like a big missed opportunity for the directors.

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Anyone else really annoyed with how they had Tyrion tell Sansa? What made the arranged marriage even more awful was the fact that it was SPRUNG on Sansa and she literally tried to fight it. I'm trying to figure out where they're going with that - does it serve a specific purpose or was it just a random change?

(there were a lot of changes to the plot that I didn't like in this episode tbh...)

It could just be straight-up whitewashing of Tyrion, again, as greensleeves argues, but it also seems like the writers have changed the plot from a "Lannisters are ganging up on Sansa by conspiring to force her into a marriage" to "the Lannisters, a child, and a gay man are roped into unwanted marriages at the behest of Tywin Lannister, and none of them can get out of it."

So instead of Tywin persuading Tyrion as in the books, you've got Tywin ordering both Tyrion and Cersei into engagements. Instead of it just being Tyrion as in the books, you've got Tyrion and Cersei commiserating over the nightmare engagements they've been forced into, and how little choice they have. (When Tyrion wonders if there's a way out of it, Cersei's deadpan suggestion is to have Loras and Sansa killed.) Instead of Cersei and Tyrion keeping the marriage under wraps until the last possible moment (i.e. when Sansa is in her wedding dress) as in the books, both Cersei and Tyrion agree that Sansa should be told, and Tyrion actually steps up to do it.

I'm not sure what occasioned the change. It might be straight-up whitewashing of Tyrion, but there might be other reasons. It seems to set up a wedge between Tyrion and Shae. Setting up the "dual engagements" non-book storyline also gives Loras something to do and gives Cersei some skin in the game for the last part of Season 3. The "dual engagements" also gave us a basis for the Tywin/Olenna scene. There could be a number of reasons besides "We need to make Tyrion look more sympathetic."

And yet their positions are different because Tyrion *does* have a choice. He is not a prisoner. This is clear in the books, and is made even clearer when contrasted with Sansa's treatment on the matter.

It's clear in the books, yes, but in the show Tyrion and Cersei seem to believe subjectively that they have no choice (thus Cersei's "suggestion" of having Loras and Sansa killed as the only way out of the marriage she can think of). He's not a capital-p Prisoner like Sansa, but the Tyrion/Cersei scene implied in 3x06 that functionally, Tyrion and Cersei had about as much choice in their marriages as Sansa would: Cersei's only hope was Jaime killing Loras, and Tyrion was, well, f****ed.

Of course this may have meant actually witnessing Tyrion being cruel. Do we think he spelled it out for her like Book!Cersei did?

Assuming Shae and Tyrion have some sort of blowout over the engagement--and I think we can assume that they will, at this point--we might get a sense of what exactly he said to her. I doubt the manner of his delivery of the news would be cruel and brutally blunt, as Cersei's was.

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Tyrion was lying seeing he had weeks when he could have told her and never put any effort to do so.

Tyrion finds out he's to wed Sansa Stark and the next POV chapter we have in KL is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion.

Where did you come up with weeks?

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In the show they've made it look like they have the same level of choice.

In the show we have both Tyrion and Sansa just being told they'll be married (presumably we didn't get to see Sansa's scene), and then they are both unhappy about it.

And yet their positions are different because Tyrion *does* have a choice. He is not a prisoner. This is clear in the books, and is made even clearer when contrasted with Sansa's treatment on the matter.

This is doubly strange when it's discussed in this very same episode that you can't force a man into a marriage agreement. Not even a king can do that, as King Robb couldn't force Edmure into marrying that Frey girl, and yet somehow Tywin can force Tyrion into a marriage?

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I acknowledge that they do present a kinder version of Tyrion in the show than the books. It isn't made clear enough that there are a multitude of benefits he stands to gain by wedding and bedding her. She is said to be the "key to the north" but it isn't spelled out that Tyrion and Sansa's son would become the most powerful man in the north- advancement that Tyrion could never hope for otherwise.

But at the same time, virtually all of those benefits require the wedding and the bedding. He never goes through with the latter of those rituals. How much are they really whitewashing him if its going to end the same way- with an unconsummated marriage? They have glossed some of Tyrion's nastier aspects, but I don't think the Sansa marriage is where the battle ought to be fought. It seems to be the place where he actually does an act of kindness that gives him no benefit at all. I'll wait to see if they spare Shae or something to say they've gone too far.

Tyrion finds out he's to wed Sansa Stark and the next POV chapter we have in KL is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion.

Where did you come up with weeks?

Right, especially since from the end of ACOK to Joffrey's wedding is supposed to cover about a month.

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