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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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Didn't Garlan Tyrell also state that Tyrion would not be a bad choice because he was a good man?

He did, but because Sansa thought the other option was Loras and then, Willas, not Joffrey. For Sansa, Willas was already a good option instead of Loras.

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He did, but because Sansa thought the other option was Loras and then, Willas, not Joffrey. For Sansa, Willas was already a good option instead of Loras.

Yes, but she'd never met Willas, and didn't know about Loras' sexual preferences. Garlan, who knew them both, still thought Tyrion was better than either of his brothers. That's saying something.

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young, old, dwarf, handsome or not i would rather marry patchface than any member of the house that destroyed my family. But that's just me.

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Yeah, it is extremely annoying as it seems like they are diminishing her tragedy in order to insure he still looks good.

It's more like they're giving her tragedy more time to blossom. Instead of a surprise, they're letting it fester.

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Forgot that, and it's a great point.

Didn't Garlan Tyrell also state that Tyrion would not be a bad choice because he was a good man?

Thanks! And yes he did.

Garlan was trying to make Sansa feel better.

Garlan was trying to make her feel better, but that doesn't diminish what he said.

I think probably Garlan thought that, whatever Sansa might think of Tyrion, Tyrion would fall for Sansa eventually, and he couldn't see Tyrion being cruel to Sansa. We've seen Tyrion protect her before, so Garlan was probably thinking Tyrion could protect her from Jofferey and would be capable of loving her, unlike Loras.

That doesn't make Tyrion a better choice than Willas of course.

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Thanks! And yes he did.

Garlan was trying to make her feel better, but that doesn't diminish what he said.

I think probably Garlan thought that, whatever Sansa might think of Tyrion, Tyrion would fall for Sansa eventually, and he couldn't see Tyrion being cruel to Sansa. We've seen Tyrion protect her before, so Garlan was probably thinking Tyrion could protect her from Jofferey and would be capable of loving her, unlike Loras.

That doesn't make Tyrion a better choice than Willas of course.

I think Garlan was only trying to make her better (did Garlan even really have any knowledge of Tyrion's true character to determine whether he was a good man or not) and from her point of view, polite coldness from Loras would be better than burning love and desire from Tyrion. The Tyrion of ASOS is different from the Tyrion of ACOK and has no real power or authority to protect and defend Sansa from Joffrey on his own. If Joffrey truly wanted to harm Sansa, the only one that could truly check him was Tywin, not Tyrion.

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Seems to me like people are forgetting a couple things about the original material. Tyrion makes it clear in the book that he absolutely does not want to marry Sansa, and his father DOES order him to marry her. That happened. The choice Tyrion has is not to spare Sansa marriage entirely (and I'm going to put this next bit in spoiler tags) but to:

either marry Sansa himself or watch as she is forcibly married to someone else. Tyrion himself talks to Sansa and offers to go immediately to his father and demand that she be married to Lancel if that is what she wants. He knows he can't stop the wedding, he can't prevent her from marrying a Lannister. There is no grand gesture on his part that can save her (short of outright treason that ends with him dead), he said his piece and his father blew him off. He offers her the choice of someone he knows to be reasonably decent (if a Lannister) and more in her age. She chooses Tyrion because she knows him to be kind.

Considering this, claims that he married her purely for greed kind of fall flat, because of what he was willing to do.

Tyrion's own attitude is in conflict with this: Tyrion is consistently resentful towards Sansa. He blames the fact that she doesn't want him on his looks rather than understanding that she's been forced into her position. He wants her trust, love, and lust, and is very bitter about not receiving it. If he had married her as some purely altruistic gesture, you would think he'd be more understanding.

He's also covetous towards Winterfell, both in his thoughts and in offering pieces of the North up as bribes. It's also notable that when he finally considers fleeing King's Landing, its not for her sake (despite her being subjected to Joffrey's repeated rape threats)... it's because he thinks his own life might be in danger.

If he had married her in some purely altruistic gesture, you'd think his attitude would be slightly better.

Instead, his attitude supports a different conclusion: the fact that Sansa was going to be married off anyways simply made him feel better about his choice to forcibly marry a young woman.

Garlan was trying to make her feel better, but that doesn't diminish what he said.

I think probably Garlan thought that, whatever Sansa might think of Tyrion, Tyrion would fall for Sansa eventually, and he couldn't see Tyrion being cruel to Sansa. We've seen Tyrion protect her before, so Garlan was probably thinking Tyrion could protect her from Jofferey and would be capable of loving her, unlike Loras.

That doesn't make Tyrion a better choice than Willas of course.

Just out of curiosity, do you also take Garlan's words to Tyrion at Joffrey's wedding feast at face value?

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Of the four, Sansa's the only child, and she's the only one marrying 1) a dwarf and 2) someone old enough to be her parent. Just the shot of them in frame speaks for itself. There's all the other stuff, obviously, (prisoner, abused by Joffrey, Lannisters are at war with her family, hates King's Landing, wants to be as far away from the Lannisters as possible, Tyrion's reputation for boozing and whoring, etc. etc.), but in terms of "showing" why she's the one who's the worst off, that's all they really need to do. If that's not enough for you, they've also made a point in Season 3 of showing Sansa constantly surrounded by a pair of Lannister guards, visually emphasizing her status as a prisoner.

The age difference between TV Loras and Cersei can't be much smaller than between TV Sansa and Tyrion.

And show Sansa is not really a child anymore, she is fifteen, I believe, the actress is seventeen. Loras being miserable as well doesn't really improve Sansa's situation but seeing Sophie Turner no viewer will get the idea of child abuse, she is a young woman. There are many reasons for Sansa not wanting a forced marriage but seeing the whole plot as child abuse will be hard to sell to tv fans.

I liked the change, but it would have been nice to see the conversation and the facial expressions of all three of them.

I hope we don't see Cersei twist the knife in Sansa anymore.  I really like that the show has made Cersei and Tyrion better people. It's more believable and certainly better television.

by Gannicus

I fully agree concerning Cersei. And some of the "whitewashing" critics concerning Tyrion ar totally pointless since his darkest times are yet to come in the series. I hope they will keep Tyrion as complex as he is in the books. He should be the one to kill Shae and he should be miserable, depressed and ugly after that, anything else would be highly unbelievable. If he didn't react that way he'd be an outright sociopath, you just don't go on cracking funny jokes if you have just killed your father and your lover - I guess there is no code for socially accepted behaviour after a deed like that, so a little self loathing and depression should be ok.

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We're never going to see a Loras/Cersei wedding, so comparing him to Sansa is pointless.

Actually, Loras' situation is more comparable to Arya's engagement to Frey.

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Well, some folk (me for instance) aren't going to muster much sympathy for Sansa either way, especially when portrayed by a 17 year old rather than a 13/14 year old. She's concerned about who makes prettier dresses, while her younger brothers are running for their lives, Arya is living in the wild, and Robb is fighting battles and trying to win a war. She doesn't appear to be alcking in any creature comforts, lives in a nice castle witha handmaiden....she just doesn't seem to be suffereing nearly as much in comparison.

Maybe it is a defense mechanism for dealing with all the pain.

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Maybe it is a defense mechanism for dealing with all the pain.

Not to mention, she doesn't know about Arya, Bran, and Rickon's fate for all she knows they are sitting around Winterfell playing with Hodor. Moreover, how often have seen any of them sit back and wonder about their other siblings' fate?

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I think Garlan was only trying to make her better (did Garlan even really have any knowledge of Tyrion's true character to determine whether he was a good man or not) and from her point of view, polite coldness from Loras would be better than burning love and desire from Tyrion. The Tyrion of ASOS is different from the Tyrion of ACOK and has no real power or authority to protect and defend Sansa from Joffrey on his own. If Joffrey truly wanted to harm Sansa, the only one that could truly check him was Tywin, not Tyrion.

Good point, in her situation she may indeed have preferred cold indifference to love depending on where it was coming from. I didn't even consider that.

Tyrion's own attitude is in conflict with this: Tyrion is consistently resentful towards Sansa. He blames the fact that she doesn't want him on his looks rather than understanding that she's been forced into her position. He wants her trust, love, and lust, and is very bitter about not receiving it. If he had married her as some purely altruistic gesture, you would think he'd be more understanding.

He's also covetous towards Winterfell, both in his thoughts and in offering pieces of the North up as bribes. It's also notable that when he finally considers fleeing King's Landing, its not for her sake (despite her being subjected to Joffrey's repeated rape threats)... it's because he thinks his own life might be in danger.

If he had married her in some purely altruistic gesture, you'd think his attitude would be slightly better.

Instead, his attitude supports a different conclusion: the fact that Sansa was going to be married off anyways simply made him feel better about his choice to forcibly marry a young woman.

I never said that his motive was purely altruistic, I consider it to be more akin to damage control. if it were pure altruism then he would have commited treason to get her out of there and risked his own life to do so. He was interested in keeping his own neck off the chopping block, serving his family and reducing Sansa's personal misery to a managable level.

Of course he resents Sansa, every gesture she makes shows how freaked out she is by this pairing and reminds him of what he is. But it is notable that despite this he tries to minimize the damage to her. As I said previously, the Winterfell thing was not something he seemed to covet or think overlong about - Tyrion's desire has always been for Casterly Rock, and if he wanted Winterfell that badly he never would have brought up

Lancel as a potential husband

with Sansa.

Just out of curiosity, do you also take Garlan's words to Tyrion at Joffrey's wedding feast at face value?

Basically I think there were multiple levels to what he was saying. It wasn't a face value thing, it seemed to me more like he was thinking through multiple things at the same time and making an offhand comment.

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The age difference between TV Loras and Cersei can't be much smaller than between TV Sansa and Tyrion.

And show Sansa is not really a child anymore, she is fifteen, I believe, the actress is seventeen. Loras being miserable as well doesn't really improve Sansa's situation but seeing Sophie Turner no viewer will get the idea of child abuse, she is a young woman. There are many reasons for Sansa not wanting a forced marriage but seeing the whole plot as child abuse will be hard to sell to tv fans.

I know it's a TV show so casual viewers may not give it as much thought as say, us discussing it in this forum, but they still know (or should know,) that Sansa is still a young teen. Again, people who are solely TV watchers won't know this, but she's described as tall and womanly in the books. And abuse is abuse - even if they don't see her as a child, she's still a female getting beaten and forced into a marriage she wants no part of, which is abuse.

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Of course he resents Sansa, every gesture she makes shows how freaked out she is by this pairing and reminds him of what he is. But it is notable that despite this he tries to minimize the damage to her. As I said previously, the Winterfell thing was not something he seemed to covet or think overlong about - Tyrion's desire has always been for Casterly Rock, and if he wanted Winterfell that badly he never would have brought up

Lancel as a potential husband

with Sansa.

I agree. It ought to be noted that Tyrion's resentful thoughts toward Sansa remain only in his head. He doesn't take anything out on her and makes an effort to be kind and courteous. As for Winterfell, Tyrion certainly sees the attraction of that aspect of the marriage, but there was a limit to what he was willing to do to reap that benefit. It stopped at forced consummation. So he's not purely altruistic, but he's far from purely self interested.

I also think that the Garlan quote can be read on several levels. Sure he's being courteous and trying to offer comfort. But his observation about Tyrion being a bigger man than he seems appears so often in some form throughout the series in other characters' observations about Tyrion that I can't believe that he is just prattling nonsense.

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It's more like they're giving her tragedy more time to blossom. Instead of a surprise, they're letting it fester.

The show has tried to do a "decent" job of having some tragedies be built up, some be surprise and others being curve balls. Sometimes we have to see tragedy coming or else if they always try to surprise us everyone will see things coming that are suppose to surprise us.

We already had a forshadowed dread moment with the Night's Watch dissension, having to wait for Sansa to hear the news we already know would be a waiting for the bomb to drop moment.

Now we might get some good exchanges as Sansa has to come to gripes with her fate and Tyrion and Shae have to deal with this as far as their relationship goes.

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I agree. It ought to be noted that Tyrion's resentful thoughts toward Sansa remain only in his head. He doesn't take anything out on her and makes an effort to be kind and courteous. As for Winterfell, Tyrion certainly sees the attraction of that aspect of the marriage, but there was a limit to what he was willing to do to reap that benefit. It stopped at forced consummation. So he's not purely altruistic, but he's far from purely self interested.

I also think that the Garlan quote can be read on several levels. Sure he's being courteous and trying to offer comfort. But his observation about Tyrion being a bigger man than he seems appears so often in some form throughout the series in other characters' observations about Tyrion that I can't believe that he is just prattling nonsense.

Exactly what I was thinking, well said.

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I would somewhat disagree in some of my discussions with the unsullied many of them like him seeing him as harsh but fair and somewhat honorable.

Yeah Every show watcher I know love Tywin.

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The curse of Charles Dance. The man's just too damn fabulous.

Has the story of Tysha been mentioned in the show yet? I would imagine that'll take a person or two off of Team Tywin. (i certainly hope so anyway) It's pretty fucking heinous.

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The curse of Charles Dance. The man's just too damn fabulous.

Has the story of Tysha been mentioned in the show yet? I would imagine that'll take a person or two off of Team Tywin. (i certainly hope so anyway) It's pretty fucking heinous.

Yes, Tyrion told the story to Shae and Bronn in the first season (episode 9 I think), and Tyrion mentioned being married in episode 5 this season, but I hope Tyrion tells Sansa because a lot of tv fans have probably forgot about it

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