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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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Of course he resents Sansa, every gesture she makes shows how freaked out she is by this pairing and reminds him of what he is. But it is notable that despite this he tries to minimize the damage to her. As I said previously, the Winterfell thing was not something he seemed to covet or think overlong about - Tyrion's desire has always been for Casterly Rock, and if he wanted Winterfell that badly he never would have brought up Lancel as a potential husband with Sansa.

Does he try to minimize damage to her? That's not very obvious to me. He wanted Casterly Rock, but at that point didn't think he could get it. Also just because he wanted Casterly Rock doesn't mean that he couldn't want Winterfell as well (he did).

I agree. It ought to be noted that Tyrion's resentful thoughts toward Sansa remain only in his head. He doesn't take anything out on her and makes an effort to be kind and courteous. As for Winterfell, Tyrion certainly sees the attraction of that aspect of the marriage, but there was a limit to what he was willing to do to reap that benefit. It stopped at forced consummation.

You're right he just has her strip and then gropes her a bit, but hey what's a bit of sexual assault now and then... he was obviously kind and courteous about it. :rolleyes:

Think what you like, but there is plenty of evidence that Tyrion wants Winterfell and Sansa herself and almost no evidence that he wants to save/is glad to have saved Sansa from another, theoretically worse marriage. This to me implies that Tywin's threat to marry Sansa to Lancel functions (at best) as an excuse for Tyrion rather than motivation.

The curse of Charles Dance. The man's just too damn fabulous.

Has the story of Tysha been mentioned in the show yet? I would imagine that'll take a person or two off of Team Tywin. (i certainly hope so anyway) It's pretty fucking heinous.

It's been alluded to at least a couple of times. I think when we first meet Shae he tells her and Bronn about it, but I don't think the full awfulness has come out yet.

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Yeah, it's when they are having a slumber party in Tyrion's tent before the battle. It was a little bit toned down. My dad the non-book reader loves Tywin. I pointed out the gangraping of Tyrion's wife and he was like "yeah that was awful...but it's too hard to hate the guy."

Personally, I like Tywin more in the show. He's such a Sir. So much charisma. One of my friends (likewise a non-reader) IMed me going "sooo...any chance Sansa marries Tywin instead of Tyrion?" It gave me a laugh; I directed her to Tumblr.

I'm really curious how they handle Tyrion and Sansa's relationship. To me in the books it showed Sansa's growing strength that she honestly rejected him. Don't know if it'll be portrayed the same.

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So many of you seem far too preoccupied with others' understanding of the characters and enjoyment of the show rather than your own.

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I believe one thing that really hurts how she is perceived is her relative lack of expressed concern for what is happening to the rest of her family. They didn't do her any favors with the naivete of her "do you think they'll let my family come" question. No, Sansa, they won't, because they are trying to kill your little batch of traitors. But thanks for being more concerned about whether they can be at your wedding than whether they're actually, you know, still alive.

Since Book-Sansa never expected, or asked anyone, if she could invite her family to her wedding to Willas Tyrell, the TV character's speculation took me by surprise. I think it was a bad mistake on the part of the writers. TV-Sansa spent much of last season referring to her family as 'traitors'; she clearly knew that her brother was fighting the people who held her captive; having her suddenly wonder out loud if she could invite her family to her wedding makes no sense.

The writers could have had Sansa say that she wished she could invite her family to her wedding, she missed her mother and had always expected her to be at her wedding. They could even had had her wonder if her mother and brother might be able to come to her wedding if it was held at Highgarden (though even that seems ridiculous, given that the supposed groom's sister is engaged to Joffrey).

TV-Sansa seems to have not been told about the supposed deaths of Bran and Rickon. As I recall, book-Sansa thought that Arya had made it back to Winterfell.

Don't forget; both book and TV Sansa took great care to constantly refer to her family as traitors; because when she didn't, she was beaten. Her own thoughts, when she did think of her family, were warm and wistful. I personally believe that book-Sansa did not think of her family all the time because it was too painful. (she probably learned to suppress and redirect such thoughts just to dull the pain and loneliness and fear)

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So many of you seem far too preoccupied with others' understanding of the characters and enjoyment of the show rather than your own.

Haha that's because when you love something, you want other people to love the same thing you do, and it's annoying/upsetting/frustrating when people hate the thing (in this case a character or plot) that you love, or vice versa (loving something you hate).

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Not to mention, she doesn't know about Arya, Bran, and Rickon's fate for all she knows they are sitting around Winterfell playing with Hodor. Moreover, how often have seen any of them sit back and wonder about their other siblings' fate?

She knows that there is a massive military alliance trying to destroy her family. The rest is details. Except for Arya, whom Sansa knows was young and fleeing alone in a hostile land, and is very unlikely to be sitting in Winterfell.

As for the rest of the family, Robb kills Rickard Karstark in part because he's worried the murder of the Lannister boys may provoke the Lannisters to violence against his sisters. Catelyn, obviously, is obsessed with her children. Arya wants her family back, and wants violent revenge against those who did them wrong. Rickon is just little, but Bran has him to worry about. And I don't see any of the rest of them complaining that they don't like the colors of their clothing, and wish they had better designers....

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Tyrion's own attitude is in conflict with this: Tyrion is consistently resentful towards Sansa. He blames the fact that she doesn't want him on his looks rather than understanding that she's been forced into her position.

Sansa was forced into a marriage with Joffrey, which she certainly didn't mind when it was proposed. She was going to be forced into a marriage with Loras, then Willas, which she didn't mind. If Tyrion looked like Loras, I strongly suspect she wouldn't have minded being married to him either, forced or not. I'm not saying she should be happy about the marriage, but simply pointing out that being "forced" into marriage is the norm in Westeros, and something she'd have been raised to understand. Projecting a 21st century, western mindset that is steadfastly opposed to arranged marriages onto Sansa, as if she'd have that same reaction to the concept, is wrong.

He wants her trust, love, and lust, and is very bitter about not receiving it. If he had married her as some purely altruistic gesture, you would think he'd be more understanding.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Tyrion is purely altruistic, or some flawless paragon of virtue, especially under modern standards. But if you judge him in the culture of his time, against what other Westerosi would be expected to do in that position, he looks much better than the norm. His feelings are hurt because he can't control how he looks. All he can control is how he behaves and treats her, and he's treating her well. Yet, she's very clearly rejecting him. He's stuck in a loveless marriage just as much as she is. So, he resents it, because perhaps he hoped that treating her well might help in time. But despite those hurt feelings, and despite living in a culture that told him that it was his duty to bed her, he still didn't. Again, based on what we've seen elsewhere in Westeros, that makes him a good man.

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Does he try to minimize damage to her? That's not very obvious to me. He wanted Casterly Rock, but at that point didn't think he could get it. Also just because he wanted Casterly Rock doesn't mean that he couldn't want Winterfell as well (he did).

It doesn't mean he wouldn't want Winterfell, but never once in the text does he say "If I marry Sansa Winterfell will be mine! MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!" or any variant thereof. It is mentioned by Tywin and as far as I can recall, that's it. Your argument seems again to be focused on the idea that he is being greedy when he marries Sansa. I've already explained I believe he was merely doing damage control. And yes he absolutely DID try to minimize the damage to her. Did you read what I wrote in spoiler tags? I think that makes it very plain. If you don't then please explain how he benefits from having

Lancel marry Sansa and being utterly passed over for Winterfell

.

And I am putting that in spoiler tags because it may yet be a spoiler for the show, and I don't want to ruin it for anyone. If you haven't read what I've said in the past two sets of spoiler tags then you are not going to be able to respond adequately to my suggestions, virtually my entire argument depends on it.

You're right he just has her strip and then gropes her a bit, but hey what's a bit of sexual assault now and then... he was obviously kind and courteous about it. :rolleyes:

Everytime someone brings this up I say the same thing. Arranged marriage happens without the consent of females on a regular basis. Sometimes they get lucky and and their parents make a match that suits them, but a good portion of the time their feelings on the matter are mentioned only in passing and have no bearing on whether the match actually takes place. Take a look at Sansa's own mother - she didn't even KNOW Ned Stark, but she'd been taught it was her duty so she made no attempt to fight it. Just because it worked out in the end for her, an that they ended up loving one another doesn't make the forced marriage any better.

Notice how Ned Stark got a child on Cat, but nobody faults him for it. He was "just doing his duty" after all.

Women in the GoT universe are taught from an early age that sexual assault is not sexual assault if your husband is doing it. MEN are taught that it is socially acceptable to force themselves on young women if their family forces said woman to wed them. Rather than judge Tyrion alone, you should be passing judgement on the culture of Westeros as a whole. And as for your statement that he strips her, he doesn't. He tells Sansa to do it and she does, because it's what she's been taught to do her entire life - obey her husband. He touches her and she lets him, because she's been taught to obey. He does it because he's been taught it is his duty, she allows it because she believes it's hers. That's not to say he couldn't hold her down and force her - she obviously doesn't have a choice in what happens while she is a prisoner, but it is important to note that even from Sansa's point of view, what is happening is acceptable within the confines of a marriage.

Tyrion is exceptional on this occasion because in stark contrast with societal norms he rebukes himself and does not carry through with the consummation of a forced marriage. He is able to empathize with Sansa and view it from her point of view and decides that it would be wrong to force her. For this decision he is ridiculed at court and again threatened by his father. When he decides to do this he openly puts his entire claim to Winterfell at risk, it is mentioned several times in the text of the book itself that an unconsummated marriage CAN be set aside, nullifying any and all claims he had. So I ask again, how does he benefit from this decision?

Even when Sansa asks "And what if I never want to?" and he feels as though he's been slapped in the face, considering the idea of being trapped in a sexless, loveless marriage for all his days, he STILL says he will not force her. "That's what whores are for."

You can argue that he may have gone back on his word eventually, but that is conjecture, we never saw what would have happened.

Think what you like, but there is plenty of evidence that Tyrion wants Winterfell and Sansa herself and almost no evidence that he wants to save/is glad to have saved Sansa from another, theoretically worse marriage. This to me implies that Tywin's threat to

marry Sansa to Lancel functions

(at best) as an excuse for Tyrion rather than motivation.

Lancel

was Tyrion's suggestion, not Tywin's, so your argument here falls flat. And his statements on his way to be married to her prove that he was not looking at the marriage in a favorable light, he straight out calls it a farce.

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I read the book and never loved Sansa. Although I sympathized with her I thought she was frustrating and a bit annoying until the moment she escaped KL.

Even the wedding/bedding didn't strike me as a particular moment of strength from her.

On the other side of things I always felt although Tyrion did bad things, he was coming from the right place. Up until his final chapter in ASOS. We can argue about that but the point is I think the majority of casual book readers feel the same way. That's why the show has gone in this direction.

The tv show is not going to be exactly like the book. I have to accept the changes they've made to Stannis as some of you need to accept the changes that have been made to Tyrion and Sansa.

I think the show has done well making good characters even better in many cases. Tyrion, Cersei, Shae, Tywin, Varys, Cat (imo), Olenna, ect.

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Everytime someone brings this up I say the same thing. Arranged marriage happens without the consent of females on a regular basis. Sometimes they get lucky and and their parents make a match that suits them, but a good portion of the time their feelings on the matter are mentioned only in passing and have no bearing on whether the match actually takes place. Take a look at Sansa's own mother - she didn't even KNOW Ned Stark, but she'd been taught it was her duty so she made no attempt to fight it. Just because it worked out in the end for her, an that they ended up loving one another doesn't make the forced marriage any better.

Notice how Ned Stark got a child on Cat, but nobody faults him for it. He was "just doing his duty" after all.

Women in the GoT universe are taught from an early age that sexual assault is not sexual assault if your husband is doing it. MEN are taught that it is socially acceptable to force themselves on young women if their family forces said woman to wed them. Rather than judge Tyrion alone, you should be passing judgement on the culture of Westeros as a whole. And as for your statement that he strips her, he doesn't. He tells Sansa to do it and she does, because it's what she's been taught to do her entire life - obey her husband. He touches her and she lets him, because she's been taught to obey. He does it because he's been taught it is his duty, she allows it because she believes it's hers. That's not to say he couldn't hold her down and force her - she obviously doesn't have a choice in what happens while she is a prisoner, but it is important to note that even from Sansa's point of view, what is happening is acceptable within the confines of a marriage.

Tyrion is exceptional on this occasion because in stark contrast with societal norms he rebukes himself and does not carry through with the consummation of a forced marriage. He is able to empathize with Sansa and view it from her point of view and decides that it would be wrong to force her. For this decision he is ridiculed at court and again threatened by his father. When he decides to do this he openly puts his entire claim to Winterfell at risk, it is mentioned several times in the text of the book itself that an unconsummated marriage CAN be set aside, nullifying any and all claims he had. So I ask again, how does he benefit from this decision?

Even when Sansa asks "And what if I never want to?" and he feels as though he's been slapped in the face, considering the idea of being trapped in a sexless, loveless marriage for all his days, he STILL says he will not force her. "That's what whores are for."

You can argue that he may have gone back on his word eventually, but that is conjecture, we never saw what would have happened.

I so much agree with you. And we should not forget that this practice is still common in many parts of our world. The difference between an arranged and a forced marriage is that in an arranged marriage it is her own parents who choose the rapist of their daughter. And let's not forget that even in those parts of our world the young men are not all brutes and they may have compunctions and difficulties to rape the woman they are doomed to spend the rest of their life with - and they get mercilessly laughed for their "weak" kindness.

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Sansa was forced into a marriage with Joffrey, which she certainly didn't mind when it was proposed. She was going to be forced into a marriage with Loras, then Willas, which she didn't mind. If Tyrion looked like Loras, I strongly suspect she wouldn't have minded being married to him either, forced or not. I'm not saying she should be happy about the marriage, but simply pointing out that being "forced" into marriage is the norm in Westeros, and something she'd have been raised to understand. Projecting a 21st century, western mindset that is steadfastly opposed to arranged marriages onto Sansa, as if she'd have that same reaction to the concept, is wrong.

She wasn't "forced" into either of those first two marriages. They were arranged, but she wanted them. She quite clearly did not want to marry Tyrion, or any Lannister; Tyrion's looks were not the dealbreaker there.

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She wasn't "forced" into either of those first two marriages. They were arranged, but she wanted them.

So the difference between an "arranged" and "forced" marriage is whether or not you actually like the person, not whether you get a real choice in the matter? Got it. So it's not the lack of choice that is the issue, but rather whether you personally find the match in which you were given no choice acceptable.

I don't see how that changes anything. It means that her problem with Tyrion wasn't that she had no choice, but that she didn't like the particular person. Which was exactly my point in the first place.

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I so much agree with you. And we should not forget that this practice is still common in many parts of our world. The difference between an arranged and a forced marriage is that in an arranged marriage it is her own parents who choose the rapist of their daughter. And let's not forget that even in those parts of our world the young men are not all brutes and they may have compunctions and difficulties to rape the woman they are doomed to spend the rest of their life with - and they get mercilessly laughed for their "weak" kindness.

This is not directed at you, but your post is a decent enough entre for a rant:

It bugs the hell out of me when people decide to apply 21st century standards of morality to judge the morality of characters in ASOIAF, and then bring that perspective into general thread discussions. It really amounts to the same argument being repeated endlessly. Yes, we all know Westeros doesn't treat women right, or many men for that matter. That there is horrible oppression by the wealthier classes, etc. etc. etc. We all get that, and virtually every scene and character relationship can be analyzed or discussed on that basis, but it again just amounts to the exact same argument. If folks want a "sexism in Westeros" discussion, or "Class oppression in Westeros" discussion, then those are certainly valid topics on their own. But for some folks to drag that in to every thread as if the rest of us need to be educated, and which inevitably results in virtually every character being deplorable becaused they're all acting in accordance with that morality, is pointless. Worse, it leads to endlessly circular, tangential discussions that derail actual discussions of the series/books as presented.

Newsflash -- Tyrion is not a 21st century feminist, nor is Sansa.

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So the difference between an "arranged" and "forced" marriage is whether or not you actually like the person, not whether you get a real choice in the matter? Got it. So it's not the lack of choice that is the issue, but rather whether you personally find the match in which you were given no choice acceptable.

Arranged marriages are unions that are benifical to both parties, nothing in the Tyrion match benifted Sansa at all.

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Arranged marriages are unions that are benifical to both parties, nothing in the Tyrion match benifted Sansa at all.

No, arranged marriages are marriages that benefit both families, or are in accordance with some binding custom, the interests of the individuals involved be damned. Loras isn't benefitting by marrying Cersei, Ned/Catelyn didn't benefit by marrying each other, etc.. They did it because they were expected/told to.

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No, arranged marriages are marriages that benefit both families, or are in accordance with some binding custom, the interests of the individuals involved be damned. Loras isn't benefitting by marrying Cersei, Ned/Catelyn didn't benefit by marrying each other, etc.. They did it because they were expected/told to.

Ned got an army, and Catelyn got a husband with a powerful claim.

Sansa gets Tyrion and nothing else, as Tyrion has nothing to his name.

Moreover, even under your standard Sansa is getting screwed as her family recieves no benfit from the match.

Arranged Marriages are not the samething as forced marriages, review Luwin's discussion regarding Ramsay and Lady Hornwood's forced marriage.

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I agree with BurningCandle that the context of the society has to be taken into account. We can't judge Tyrion by a modern standard and give the rest of Westeros a pass. Tyrion actually acts by a higher standard than his culture. Not consummating the marriage makes Tyrion an even bigger figure of ridicule at court.

So the difference between an "arranged" and "forced" marriage is whether or not you actually like the person, not whether you get a real choice in the matter? Got it. So it's not the lack of choice that is the issue, but rather whether you personally find the match acceptable.

I don't see how that changes anything. It means that her problem with Tyrion wasn't that she had no choice, but that she didn't like the particular person. Which was exactly my point in the first place.

Yeah, the distinction between an "arranged" marriage and a "forced" marriage that I've seen on several boards is so slight as to be meaningless. Regardless of what we call it, all of these marriages come with pressure to accept that is essentially irresistible. The difference between Sansa's situation and the ordinary one, like that her mother faced, is that Sansa is being ordered to marry by people she despises who hold her prisoner while Catelyn was ordered to marry by someone who she loved and trusted. In reality Catelyn could not say no either. Perhaps Lord Tully wouldn't have had her carried to the sept but the practical pressure was enormous.

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....

First of all, there is no need for your spoiler tags. There's spoiler in the thread title, we're clearly discussing the books, and you've kept lots of things that would be spoilers for show watchers out of spoiler tags (including the fact that they get married at all). That's why I've been removing them; they are annoying to click on.

It doesn't mean he wouldn't want Winterfell, but never once in the text does he say "If I marry Sansa Winterfell will be mine! MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!" or any variant thereof. It is mentioned by Tywin and as far as I can recall, that's it.

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill.

I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust.

These are just quotes I found with a quick look.

...

Cat and Ned's marriage was arranged, but they also consented to it. (It's not mutually exclusive.) Presumably all sexual acts within their marriage were also consensual.

He tells Sansa to do it and she does, because it's what she's been taught to do her entire life - obey her husband. He touches her and she lets him, because she's been taught to obey. He does it because he's been taught it is his duty, she allows it because she believes it's hers. That's not to say he couldn't hold her down and force her - she obviously doesn't have a choice in what happens while she is a prisoner, but it is important to note that even from Sansa's point of view, what is happening is acceptable within the confines of a marriage.

Note that she says 'no' to the marriage only to be told that she will be beaten and forced to comply if she doesn't go through with it. Sansa's obeying here not out of some cultural indoctrination but because she is being physically threatened.

When he decides to do this he openly puts his entire claim to Winterfell at risk, it is mentioned several times in the text of the book itself that an unconsummated marriage CAN be set aside, nullifying any and all claims he had. So I ask again, how does he benefit from this decision?

He ends up not benefiting at all (though he does attempt... I think twice... to use northern lands as bargaining chips). Now he's got a big target on his back by everyone who wants to use Sansa for her claim. This is why, earlier in the thread, I called marrying Sansa one of Tyrion's greatest blunders.

Even when Sansa asks "And what if I never want to?" and he feels as though he's been slapped in the face, considering the idea of being trapped in a sexless, loveless marriage for all his days, he STILL says he will not force her. "That's what whores are for."

Surely the fact that he felt as though he'd been slapped implies that on some level he had expected to consumate the marriage at some point.

Lancel was Tyrion's suggestion, not Tywin's, so your argument here falls flat. And his statements on his way to be married to her prove that he was not looking at the marriage in a favorable light, he straight out calls it a farce.

No, Tywin and Kevan suggested it first. Tyrion calls everything a farce... he's a very sarcastic guy who likes making fun of just about everything (part of why he's so well liked). Nevertheless, he chose to go through with it.

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I'd say that Sansa wasn't brought up with the idea of ''Later, child, we are going to force you to marry someone we choose for you and you probably don't particularly like, and you have to obey him all the time, even when he does disgusting things to you.'' Sansa didn't do those things because she thought she was expected to, but because she saw her father getting killed in front of her, she was a prisoner in King's Landing, got beaten several times at the order of the King and because the groom's family was kinda busy murdering her whole family. She probably expected something really bad would happen if she wouldn't go along with it; heck, she was threatened to get beaten and dragged before the Septon just hours before when she made clear she refused to marry Tyrion. Short to say; she was rather terrified than ''obeying''. Come on, she was 13, she didn't know what to do in that bedchamber. She wanted it to be over quickly, because she was terrified.

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