Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

Recommended Posts

I have to agree with the OP. I'm not a book purist, but this is one deviation that doesn't make sense. If D&D would have just kept it the way it is in the books the audience would have been shocked. I'm still loving this season overall though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What part of "I do not think her not wanting to marry Tyrion is blameworthy" did you not comprehend?

The fact that you obviously do seeing how you keep calling her selfish and shallow because she doesn't treat him the same as Willas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You missed the point. I specifically said that I did not blame her for not wanting to marry Tyrion. I said it would be a sign of maturity if she did not want him as a husband but still appreciated, and expressed, the fact that he was as kind to her as circumstances permitted. What I do think makes her look badly is being so excited about the possibility of marrying Loras. Given the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, what has happened to her family, etc.., being excited about Loras Tyrell and harrumphing about not having good dressmakers in KL looks shallow and self-centered.

Now, maybe all that is to be expected from a 13 year old girl. But regardless, lots and lots of viewers are not going to be very interested in "the Adventures of an Immature and Relatively Self-centered 13 Year Old, and What She Thinks About Dresses." Not when far more interesting (to most people) things are happening elsewhere.

She can be both a victim, and shallow and self-centered. They are in no sense mutually exclusive. And as I've stated before, one of her least attractive qualities is feeling sorry for herself. That's not something we see much of in the series from other characters, so it stands out. One place we did see it was with Sam first arriving at the Wall, and I frankly shared some of the negative reactions towards him while he was doing that. What happened to him was neither right nor fair, but that doesn't make a perpetual "woe is me" outlook, and curling up in a ball, any more attractive.

What was so horrible about book-Sansa's brief moment of excitement at the thought of marrying Loras? The girl had been an abused prisoner for over year, subject to frequent beatings; and then is offered (she thinks) the prospect of marrying the handsome knight she'd had a crush, in a marriage that she had good reason to believe would remove her from captivity and abuse. Frankly, I'd have been jumping for joy too. When Sansa was told that the prospective bridegroom was not Loras but his crippled brother, she very quickly evaluated the situation in light of the change; instead of bewailing the prospect of the Loras match snatched away from her. Sansa's decision to take the chance of escape via a kind and gentle, though crippled, bridegroom, was rather mature; instead of thinking how unlucky she was to only get a physically damaged husband, she thought of making her future husband love her.

Sam was not 12 years old when his father forced him to take the Black. There is a huge gulf in maturity between 13 and 15 or 16. I also recall Jon Snow being rather self-pitying his first weeks at the Wall, thinking how wronged he was to have been deceived by his uncle and father as to the reality of the Night's Watch.

The only time that Sansa curled up in a ball and cried was immediately after seeing her father decapitated. She did wallow in self-pity then, but she was also quite genuinely unhappy, and with very good reason. And, after that, when she very bravely defied Joffrey, she was beaten. Unlike Arya or Jon in their new situations, Sansa was alone, with no one to help her or advise her (except for the Hound, whose loyalty was sworn to Sansa's enemies, not her). Another time she suffered a breakdown, though much shorter in duration, was during the nightmare and panic attack caused by her first menstruation. Given that Sansa had observed the riot and been attacked during it; and her knowing the personal consequences of menstruation (getting to marry Joffrey and have his children, oh joy), her horror was understandable; especially since she had kept her emotions on such a tight leash for months.

I don't have ASOS handy, and can't remember how much time Sansa spent, while anticipating the Tyrell marriage, thinking about dressmakers. But considering that picking out the right clothes, thinking of colors and tailoring and decoration, is something a bride does; and Sansa was a willing bride at the time, I don't see why she should be criticized for it. Sansa had always been into fashion and sewing; it was part of her, she would probably always notice such things at different parts of her life, even when stressed. And in King's Landing, her wardrobe, what she wore and how she did her hair and makeup had become part of her armor. I remember reading on one occasion after she had been beaten, Sansa very calmly orders her maids to get powder/makeup to hide the bruise, and selects a gown that she knows Joffrey likes, thinking that the choice of the dress may mollify Joffrey into treating her better for the moment. Sansa is not skilled with a sword or a martial artist; nor can she (at that time) sexually seduce people; she was picking her weapons among what she had and could use, with the knowledge that she had.

As far as the criticism of Sansa for being excited about the Tyrell marriage when the Tyrells were allied with the Lannisters...I don't think there was anyone in the palace who was not allied with the Lannisters or serving them; Sansa knew that. But as far as she knew, the Tyrells had chosen, perhaps because they were powerful enough, to reach out to her and take her away from Lannister control; and from what Sansa had observed, being under their control was preferable to being Joffrey's whipping girl and future unwilling mistress. Her options were not very good at the time - wait for Robb to come save her (wait a long time, as she had been), strike out alone into the streets of King's Landing where she had nearly been raped/killed and Lollys Stokeworth had been gang-raped - that is, if Sansa could have escaped her guards, wait on the usually drunk Ser Dontos to spring her (which Sansa was getting increasingly skeptical about), or grasp the lifeline that the Tyrells had offered by taking a chance on marriage to the Tyrell heir.

Actually, I'd find "the Adventures of an Immature and Relatively Self-centered 13 Year Old, and What She Thinks About Dresses" interesting when it's the Adventures of an Immature and Relatively Self-Centered 13-year-old and What She Thinks About Dresses While Taken Hostage and Abused By Her Family's Enemies - more, or at least just as interesting as would be the Adventures of a Brave, Mature, Self-Sufficient Warrior Princess Taken Hostage By Her Family's Enemies. I find the idea of this extremely naive, pampered and sheltered child suddenly becoming both persona non grata and a brutalized captive to be fascinating - I would want to know how she copes, how she survives, does she grow stronger and more aware of the realities of life? That is a huge part of the appeal of Sansa's story for me. Sansa at age 12 is a lot more like I was than Arya at 12 (minus Sansa's interest in embroidery and fashion; my interest and skill in those topics was never very strong), in terms of Sansa's naivete and love of legends/romances. And what I liked about Sansa's arc is that she does slowly toughen up; she does recognize that stories are just stories and that most people want to use her rather than genuinely help her; but she does keep some of her ideals and at least some compassion, as well as hone her observational skills. She is still a pawn, but most characters and real people under the age of 14 are pawns. If Sansa still has no agency or has taken no steps without Littlefinger's guidance by the time she is 20, then I will be more disappointed by her arc; but for now I find the book-character fascinating and far more realistic than Arya.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What part of "I do not think her not wanting to marry Tyrion is blameworthy", and "I specfically said that I did not blame her for not wanting to marry Tyrion" did you two not understand?

The point isn't her not wanting to marry Tyrion. I get that. The point is her being excited about marrying anyone at this point, especially including the Lannister-allied Tyrells, and worrying about how nice her dress will be. The Tyrells didn't kill her father (of course, Tyrion didn't either), but they are most assuredly supporting Joffrey, Cersei, and the rest of the Lannisters in their efforts to send her brother Robb to the same fate. Doesn't seem to bother her in the slightest, though.

You mean like how Arya whines about her mother used to tell her that she should try washing and actually apply herself to her lessons? Or Bran constantly talking about he can no longer be a knight? Or how Jon repeatedly cries how despite growing up better then 99% of Westeros one time he wasn't able to sit with the king?

No, because all those actions occured during times of peace, when people are naturally preoccupied by the mundane ups and downs of daily life. Typical bitching about the little things. But you know what? After what happened to Ned, I don't recall those characters making the same type of complaints about petty indignities, though I'd argue that Bran's being a paraplegic for life isn't petty. Yet after Ned has been killed, Arya's missing, Robb is the target of the Lannisters and Tyrells, and she has no idea regarding the status of her mother and younger brothers. Yet, she's lamenting that there aren't any good dressmakers in KL.

Or how Jaime has a crying fit because people gave him an unflattering nickname while leaving him unharmed otherwise? Or how Stannis complains that Robert gave Renly Storm's End and him Dragonstone when didn't need to do either? Tyrion about almost every single thing?

None of those characters are so defined by those particular complaints that they are otherwise unable to act assertively, and none of them have loved ones in as dire straights as are the rest of the Starks.. They bitch about things that they're angry about, then move on an act. Sansa mopes.

Theon about how his dad doesn't like him and Ned didn't welcome him into his family?

Oh, I'll definitely give you that one seeing as how it so utterly dominated his personality that he betrayed the Starks, murdered the Miller boys, etc.. Which is one reason I hated his character far more than I ever disliked Sansa's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa, looking at naked Tyrion as he is trying to seduce her, feels pity for him.

Oh no, will we have to endure watching that in some future episode? I'm with Sansa, get out of town quick, girl!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that you obviously do seeing how you keep calling her selfish and shallow because she doesn't treat him the same as Willas.

Please point me to the language where I said she should treat him the same as Willas. That'd be quite the trick since she's never even met Willas at all.

I said -- repeatedly -- that I don't blame her for not wanting to marry Tyrion, in part because she'd got very good reasons to not want to marry anyone. Nor do I have a problem with her being even less reluctant to marry Tyrion than she would be to marry Willas. My issues are 1) that she shouldn't be thrilled about marrying anyone at this point, and that getting caught up in things like the dress she will wear to Joffrey's wedding is shallow, and 2) that to the extent she does not want to marry Tyrion, that she'd come off better if she'd tell Tyrion that she didn't want to marry anyone because of the entire situation, but that she is appreciative of the consideration he has shown for her.

Whatever verbal gymnastics you wish to attempt, I personally think it is fair to say that Tyrion has engaged in actions that are intended to protect her feelings as much as he can. Which is limited, of course, but he still tries. A sign of positive maturity from her, in recognition of that, would be to thank him for that and explain why she does not want to marry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, because all those actions occured during times of peace, when people are naturally preoccupied by the mundane ups and downs of daily life. Typical bitching about the little things. But you know what? After what happened to Ned, I don't recall those characters making the same type of complaints about petty indignities,

There was peace during ACOK, ASOS, and ADWD? Seeing how Arya is complaining in ASOS and Jon is still complaining all the way into ADWD.

None of those characters are so defined by those particular complaints that they are otherwise unable to act assertively, and none of them have loved ones in as dire straights as are the rest of the Starks.. They bitch about things that they're angry about, then move on an act. Sansa mopes.

Tyrion's entire life is him self pitying himself for everything, basically something goes wrong for him he declares it is because he is a dwarf. Jaime becomes a raging asshole who commits multiple treasons because he is bitter about his nickname. Yes, they act more asserative because they are in positions of power yet they still repeatedly whine about their lot in life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point isn't her not wanting to marry Tyrion. I get that. The point is her being excited about marrying anyone at this point, especially including the Lannister-allied Tyrells, and worrying about how nice her dress will be. The Tyrells didn't kill her father (of course, Tyrion didn't either), but they are most assuredly supporting Joffrey, Cersei, and the rest of the Lannisters in their efforts to send her brother Robb to the same fate. Doesn't seem to bother her in the slightest, though.

You're a guy, right? And never had any teenage daughters, correct? (Just guessing by your comment.)

Ok, then here's random teenage girl 101 for you: It's all about emotions. Forget politics. Is he cute? Maybe his heart is in the right place, maybe he is a bad boy who is soft inside and wants the right thing and I will turn him around and everything will be good, and he is so cute, and yes I know he has some downsides, but oh he is so cute, and maybe he is just misunderstood just like my girlfriends and I are, and did I mention he is so cute....? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please point me to the language where I said she should treat him the same as Willas. That'd be quite the trick since she's never even met Willas at all.

I said -- repeatedly -- that I don't blame her for not wanting to marry Tyrion, in part because she'd got very good reasons to not want to marry anyone. Nor do I have a problem with her being even less reluctant to marry Tyrion than she would be to marry Willas. My issues are 1) that she shouldn't be thrilled about marrying anyone at this point, and that getting caught up in things like the dress she will wear to Joffrey's wedding is shallow, and 2) that to the extent she does not want to marry Tyrion, that she'd come off better if she'd tell Tyrion that she didn't want to marry anyone because of the entire situation, but that she is appreciative of the consideration he has shown for her.

Whatever verbal gymnastics you wish to attempt, I personally think it is fair to say that Tyrion has engaged in actions that are intended to protect her feelings as much as he can. Which is limited, of course, but he still tries. A sign of positive maturity from her, in recognition of that, would be to thank him for that and explain why she does not want to marry.

I guess I'm foolish or something; because if I had been in Sansa's situation, I'd have been utterly thrilled to be marrying a Tyrell. It's a matter of comparison. At that point, Sansa was not intellectually mature enough (being an isolated 12-year-old) to figure out that the Tyrells were just using her for her claim to Winterfell. All she could tell was that after months of being beaten for either defying Joffrey or his anger over her brother's actions and the delightful future prospect of becoming Joffrey's mistress and mother of his bastards, she was being offered not just a way out of King's Landing by the Tyrells, but protection against Joffrey's predation by marriage to the Heir of House Tyrell. Of course, Sansa was thrilled! The Tyrell marriage offer seemed to give her both what she desperately needed - protection from the Lannisters - and what she wanted - marriage to a Lord of good character who was not a Lannister and had not attacked anyone in her family. If Sansa had been older and more experienced, she might have questioned the veracity of Olenna and Margaery's glowing description of Willas' character. But just as Arya did not question the morality of the House of Black and White or the Faceless Men's suitability to be her guardians before she entered the House, Sansa did not question the promise of a kind, intelligent Tyrell heir as her bridegroom. (Arya was desperate for safety, food and shelter; Sansa was desperate for freedom from fear as well as protection). It was rather a bold step for Sansa; usually she thinks things out carefully or balks from making scary decisions, yet Sansa took the gamble of consenting to marry a man she did not know, with the confidence that she would be able to make the best of the situation and face the consequences of her decision, and make that man, who was not a knight in shining armor but a reclusive cripple, love her, and make their marriage work.

Sansa's interest in what she's going to wear to Joffrey's wedding. Sansa had been intent for the past year on pleasing her captors, on giving them no reason to doubt her loyalty or submission, in order to keep herself both alive and suffer less frequent beatings. I would think that pleasing Joffrey and Cersei by wearing appropriately fine (costly, high quality) and suitable clothing at court and to Joffrey's wedding would be a high priority for Sansa. Sansa's interest in fashion is both part of her range of interests and part of her armor.

Why on earth should Sansa be expected to thank Tyrion for participating in a marital land-grab of her family's domain? Especially since no one in Sansa's family (at that time, Robb and Catelyn were alive) consented to her marrying Tyrion, much less Sansa herself. If Tyrion had wanted to protect Sansa's feelings, he'd have perhaps stalled his father and have gone to the Tyrells and tried to get Sansa to Highgarden; or just refused to participate in the marriage in the first place - if Sansa was going to be forcibly married go a Lannister, it would happen, but without his involvement; that would have been the noble course of action for Tyrion. But he wanted to be Lord of Winterfell, especially when the means of attaining that lordship was marriage to a pretty young girl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also recall Jon Snow being rather self-pitying his first weeks at the Wall, thinking how wronged he was to have been deceived by his uncle and father as to the reality of the Night's Watch.

I mentioned previously that I didn't like Jon for that either.

Actually, I'd find "the Adventures of an Immature and Relatively Self-centered 13 Year Old, and What She Thinks About Dresses" interesting when it's the Adventures of an Immature and Relatively Self-Centered 13-year-old and What She Thinks About Dresses While Taken Hostage and Abused By Her Family's Enemies - more, or at least just as interesting as would be the Adventures of a Brave, Mature, Self-Sufficient Warrior Princess Taken Hostage By Her Family's Enemies.

That's fine. I just think that the appeal of that former story is different in kind to the appeal of most of the rest of ASOIAF, which deals with massive geopolitics, war, assassins, magic, dragons, etc.. It is a human interest story of an immature and relatively self-centered (though somewhat realistic) 13 year old in the middle of an epic, brutal fantasy, where the other characters are engaging in high levels of activity, adventure, and danger. So, she pales by comparison.

I find the idea of this extremely naive, pampered and sheltered child suddenly becoming both persona non grata and a brutalized captive to be fascinating - I would want to know how she copes, how she survives, does she grow stronger and more aware of the realities of life? That is a huge part of the appeal of Sansa's story for me. Sansa at age 12 is a lot more like I was than Arya at 12 (minus Sansa's interest in embroidery and fashion; my interest and skill in those topics was never very strong), in terms of Sansa's naivete and love of legends/romances.

I don't doubt that at all. But that's kind of the point. You (understandably) find Sansa's story interesting/appealing because you identify with her. But for everyone who doesn't identify with her, we just see the "extremely naive, pampered, and sheltered" Sansa, possessing those qualities, which I assume you'd agree are generally not attractive to most people. And we don't have much interest in reading about them.

but for now I find the book-character fascinating and far more realistic than Arya.

I don't personally find her fascinating because I don't really find her much out of the ordinary, but I'd agree she's far more realistic than Arya. Or perhaps a better way to say it is that Sansa is far more ordinary, and Arya far more exceptional. And I suspect for most readers, it's the exceptional (in at least some way) characters who are the most interesting. And if the character isn't exceptional, then the specific events in which they are caught up are. And while the "Who is going to marry whom" debate may be of great interest to shippers, it's not (except for the geopolitical aspects of a particular union) of much interest to non-shippers. And just to back that up, I don't think it is a coincidence that there is tremendous overlap between the "Sansa defenders", and the "San-San" shippers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You missed the point. I specifically said that I did not blame her for not wanting to marry Tyrion. I said it would be a sign of maturity if she did not want him as a husband but still appreciated, and expressed, the fact that he was as kind to her as circumstances permitted. What I do think makes her look badly is being so excited about the possibility of marrying Loras. Given the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, what has happened to her family, etc.., being excited about Loras Tyrell and harrumphing about not having good dressmakers in KL looks shallow and self-centered.

Now, maybe all that is to be expected from a 13 year old girl. But regardless, lots and lots of viewers are not going to be very interested in "the Adventures of an Immature and Relatively Self-centered 13 Year Old, and What She Thinks About Dresses." Not when far more interesting (to most people) things are happening elsewhere.

She can be both a victim, and shallow and self-centered. They are in no sense mutually exclusive. And as I've stated before, one of her least attractive qualities is feeling sorry for herself. That's not something we see much of in the series from other characters, so it stands out. One place we did see it was with Sam first arriving at the Wall, and I frankly shared some of the negative reactions towards him while he was doing that. What happened to him was neither right nor fair, but that doesn't make a perpetual "woe is me" outlook, and curling up in a ball, any more attractive.

I very much :agree: .Sansa IS a victim, no one should deny this here. And she stays a victim, her character deserves pity and we should be appalled by what happens to her even if she is not our favorite character.

But if we do not like the way this young victim reacts or if we see her as very much average child and, compared to all the hugely interesting other female characters, as being less fascinating, this does not lessen her sufferings.

And, yes, I do not expect her to like being married to Tyrion but I would have expected her to try to find an ally in Tyrion, based on the common interest of staying alive at court. She had made the experience that Tyrion was not willing to follow the generally expected ruthlessless, she could have tried her luck with some reasonable talk about how to organize survival.

HBO Sansa is older than book Sansa and maybe this is the change that will actually be made since tv Sansa can hardly behave like little book Sansa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I'm a woman and I still think TV Sansa is shallow. While many are, not all 13 year olds were or are boy crazy. Thanks.

In the book she's already started to understand that fairy tales aren't true.

What is more heart breaking in the TV series is that Sansa is being given EXACTLY what she hoped for... marriage to her perfect knight. She is so so so so happy sitting next to the fountain with her Knight of Flowers. And then they dash her agains the wall. I did feel really really bad for her.

I think they needed something that dramatic for the TV audience because they don't hear in her head that she gets that Loras didn't ascribe any meaning to the red rose he gave her. Hopefully they'll be able to show her more grown up now.

ETA: night to knight.. oops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're a guy, right? And never had any teenage daughters, correct? (Just guessing by your comment.)

Guy yes, but I do have teenage daughters, and have been around them and many of their friends. And I completely glaze over then they start talking about who likes who, etc.. Likewise, I cannot stand the reality shows like "Real World", etc.., that are nothing more than a window on a bunch of self-absorbed dweebs endlessly ruminating about the mundane aspects of their lives. Yet, there are people who find that interesting. No accounting for different tastes, eh?

Ok, then here's random teenage girl 101 for you: It's all about emotions. Forget politics. Is he cute? Maybe his heart is in the right place, maybe he is a bad boy who is soft inside and wants the right thing and I will turn him around and everything will be good, and he is so cute, and yes I know he has some downsides, but oh he is so cute, and maybe he is just misunderstood just like my girlfriends and I are, and did I mention he is so cute....? :)

Sure, I completely understand that's what absorbs many of them. Do you understand why that is of incredibly little interest to most everyone who is either 1) not one of those girls -- and not all girls of that age do that, I might add --, or 2) does not identify with them? And why being absorbed in such things can appear very petty and self-centered (which it in fact is) to those on the outside?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh while I agree the shocker of the surprise reveal was super well done in the books, I do think they are showing a lot more of the back-room negotiating that is implied in the books.

I think they wanted and opportunity to SHOW Tywin as being the super in charge, has his kids under his thumb, iron willed guy that you can infer from the books - but don't actually usually see going about his business.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa IS a victim, no one should deny this here. And she stays a victim, her character deserves pity and we should be appalled by what happens to her even if she is not our favorite character. But if we do not like the way this young victim reacts or if we see her as very much average child and, compared to all the hugely interesting other female characters, as being less fascinating, this does not lessen her sufferings.

Yes, yes, yes. That's why there is a difference between those who hate Sansa, and those who are annoyed by her character. It's not that she's bad or evil. It's that she is comparatively uninteresting and mundane.

And, yes, I do not expect her to like being married to Tyrion but I would have expected her to try to find an ally in Tyrion, based on the common interest of staying alive at court. She had made the experience that Tyrion was not willing to follow the generally expected ruthlessless, she could have tried her luck with some reasonable talk about how to organize survival.

I very much agree with that as well. Even a moderately observant person in Sansa's position would notice that he is not well-liked at court either, and has real issues with Joffrey and Cersei, but also is very intelligent. That's the kind of "dammit, I'm going to stop feeling sorry for myself and replaying all these fantasy stories in my head, and instead actually try and take some control" that would have had someone like me thinking "you go girl." But instead, every time we see her take steps in that direction, as with Ser Dontos, she falls back into Florian/Jonquil juvenile fantasies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just as an aside, and I mean no disrespect by this, I think part of the problem with the way she is written is because George himself doesn't have daughters. Yes, that is what a lot of girls that age are concerned about, and it does look self-absorbed. But I think most real girls would actually adapt to the situation Sansa faced in KL with a bit more spine.

She actually seemed to have a stronger, more forceful personality prior to Ned's death (there at least was a bitchiness quotient with her sister), and has actually regressed into greater passivity since then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I don't know if she *should* be more observant. The thing that book Sansa and TV Sansa have to overcome is that the character became a victim fairly recently. In the first part of her life she was the Queen Bee of her little world, mothers favorite, biggest problems were that not enough singers came to her fathers court and where she was going to get her next lemon cake from.

She didn't have to know how to be super observant. It takes being the under dog for a little while to learn to be cagey.

She certainly is now. I think it is taking her some time to learn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion's entire life is him self pitying himself for everything, basically something goes wrong for him he declares it is because he is a dwarf.

This. People deflecting criticism from Tyrion by saying that Sansa is whiny?

This is completely missing a large part of Tyrion's character.

I guess this is how it works:

Sansa makes a negative comment: "She's such a whiny bitch."

Sansa doesn't make a negative comment: "She's so stupid; she doesn't understand anything that's going on! What a bitch!"

I know it's cliche, but I really think some people need to go back and read again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mentioned previously that I didn't like Jon for that either.

That's fine. I just think that the appeal of that former story is different in kind to the appeal of most of the rest of ASOIAF, which deals with massive geopolitics, war, assassins, magic, dragons, etc.. It is a human interest story of an immature and relatively self-centered (though somewhat realistic) 13 year old in the middle of an epic, brutal fantasy, where the other characters are engaging in high levels of activity, adventure, and danger. So, she pales by comparison.

I don't doubt that at all. But that's kind of the point. You (understandably) find Sansa's story interesting/appealing because you identify with her. But for everyone who doesn't identify with her, we just see the "extremely naive, pampered, and sheltered" Sansa, possessing those qualities, which I assume you'd agree are generally not attractive to most people. And we don't have much interest in reading about them.

I don't personally find her fascinating because I don't really find her much out of the ordinary, but I'd agree she's far more realistic than Arya. Or perhaps a better way to say it is that Sansa is far more ordinary, and Arya far more exceptional. And I suspect for most readers, it's the exceptional (in at least some way) characters who are the most interesting. And if the character isn't exceptional, then the specific events in which they are caught up are. And while the "Who is going to marry whom" debate may be of great interest to shippers, it's not (except for the geopolitical aspects of a particular union) of much interest to non-shippers. And just to back that up, I don't think it is a coincidence that there is tremendous overlap between the "Sansa defenders", and the "San-San" shippers.

I'm not a San-San shipper; at least not unless Sansa is several years older and Sandor undergoes huge changes (which would be nice, but I doubt would happen). I do think they've shared an important bond and might meet again; and Sandor might die for Sansa, or help her, or disappoint her; a lot is up in the air.

I do identify to a certain extent with Sansa; but I find other characters interesting without feeling any similarities to them; that's not the only reason I found Sansa's story compelling. I don't identify with Tyrion at all, but I find his story and point of view fascinating. Daenerys is not like me at all, but I found her story in AGOT thrilling and compelling too. I am strongly interested in Davos; who is not like me; I don't identify with him, and I loved Ned (sob!) who I did not personally identify with at all. And Oberyn, who I didn't totally like but did love (as much as someone can love a book character).

Sansa's story interests me more than that of Arya because, in part, I find Sansa a far more realistic and believable character; and in terms of modern fantasy literature, Sansa is a more unusual character than Arya is, so there is more novelty to her story.

I don't see anything terribly wrong with being pampered, sheltered, and naive at the age of 11 or 12, as Sansa was (and I was to a lesser extent); especially since Sansa's parents were wealthy and powerful enough to protect her, and could not have foreseen, a year or a few months before her departure to King's Landing, what would come. (Tommen is equally pampered and sheltered, perhaps even more so, and everyone loves him, because he's a sweet kid who loves kittens) I would think that Ned and especially Catelyn would have planned to increase Sansa's understanding of the real world by further instruction as she grew; they did not intend her to be engaged to anyone at 11 and thought they'd have a few more years to prepare her. (which is probably why Arya was also quite indulged in terms of allowing her to get away with rowdy, disobedient behavior and the shirking of her education, she was so very young)

I do think Sansa is an exceptional girl. Not every girl of her background could have survived what she endured and remained both sane and with many of her ideals/compassion intact. As a captive, Sansa never tried to curry favor with the Lannisters by emulating them. She is in far more spiritual danger now, in post-AFFC territory; in danger of being totally corrupted by Littlefinger, since she is dependent on him (which parallels Arya's arc; she is being corrupted by the Faceless Men/Kindly Man; she is dependent on them)...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She actually seemed to have a stronger, more forceful personality prior to Ned's death (there at least was a bitchiness quotient with her sister), and has actually regressed into greater passivity since then.

Who would think a young girl who is physically beaten by armored adult men anytime she is assertive would become more passive with the time?

Seriously, people complain that she is stupid but their "solutions" basically call for her to act without any sense of self preservation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×