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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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Who would think a young girl who is physically beaten by armored adult men anytime she is assertive would become more passive with the time?

Seriously, people complain that she is stupid but their "solutions" basically call for her to act without any sense of self preservation.

Hahaha, that sentence made me double-take too. Regressed into greater passitivity? While she's being kept captive, is surrounded by enemies, and is the plaything of a psychotic boy king and at the mercy of his psychotic mother? You don't say!

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I very much :agree: .Sansa IS a victim, no one should deny this here. And she stays a victim, her character deserves pity and we should be appalled by what happens to her even if she is not our favorite character.

But if we do not like the way this young victim reacts or if we see her as very much average child and, compared to all the hugely interesting other female characters, as being less fascinating, this does not lessen her sufferings.

And, yes, I do not expect her to like being married to Tyrion but I would have expected her to try to find an ally in Tyrion, based on the common interest of staying alive at court. She had made the experience that Tyrion was not willing to follow the generally expected ruthlessless, she could have tried her luck with some reasonable talk about how to organize survival.

HBO Sansa is older than book Sansa and maybe this is the change that will actually be made since tv Sansa can hardly behave like little book Sansa.

In the books, as I recall (I don't have them handy), Sansa is tempted to confide in Tyrion, but remembers that Cersei had seemed kind and reasonable and trustworthy and then destroyed Sansa's father after Sansa trusted her. Sansa cannot, in AFFC/ASOS bring herself to trust any Lannister; and there's no one around who she does trust to tell her that she should trust Tyrion. She's totally on her own in terms of deciding who to trust; and I would say that most 12-year-olds would not have the maturity to always (or often) make the right choices as to who is trustworthy.

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This. People deflecting criticism from Tyrion by saying that Sansa is whiny?

This is completely missing a large part of Tyrion's character.

Tyrion is bitter, not whiny, and sometimes angry about aspects of his life, although he can also be very funny and enjoy himself immensely. He'll stand up to and insult those who treat him poorly. But he isn't passive as a consequence of that bitterness, and doesn't routinely retreat into internal fantasies. He sometimes gets down emotionally, but he always bounces back with determination and action. Nor -- and this is important -- does he let that bitterness blind him to the suffering of others. He talks to Jon about making bastardy his armor. He makes a saddle for Bran. He gets angry when another girl gets beaten up instead of Shae. Not because he cares about her, but because it's just wrong. He steps in to defend Sansa from being beaten, etc..

Now, he's a man in his mid-20's (book) or 30's (show) so you'd expect him to have a more developed, stronger character than a girl Sansa's age. But again, that's kind of the point. He's just more interesting/entertaining to most, and age being part of the reason doesn't change that.

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What I'm not sure of is why conversations about the two of them seem to turn instantly into "who's the bigger victim"

They seem very yin-yang to me

- Sansa is beautiful and tall where Tyrion is short and ugly

- Sansa had loving parents and siblings in her early life Tyrion did not really

- Tyrion has had lots of time and opportunity to educate himself, Sansa was young and sheltered

- Tyrion is male in a world that values maleness, Sansa is female

etc.

I don't think it is by mistake George bound them together.

ETA: That isn't me shipping them, that is me saying they are interesting foils

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I'm not a San-San shipper; at least not unless Sansa is several years older and Sandor undergoes huge changes (which would be nice, but I doubt would happen).

Yes, you are. Non-shippers don't give two thoughts about San-San, either now or in a few years.

I do think they've shared an important bond and might meet again; and Sandor might die for Sansa, or help her, or disappoint her; a lot is up in the air.

Er, but you're not a shipper....

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I don't think it is by mistake George bound them together.

ETA: That isn't me shipping them, that is me saying they are interesting foils

I get your point and think its valid. It's really more anti-shipping.

I don't "ship" Tyrion and Penny, but I think it is an interesting foil for Tyrion to see someone and know that it how others likely truly see him.

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I get your point and think its valid. It's really more anti-shipping.

I don't "ship" Tyrion and Penny, but I think it is an interesting foil for Tyrion to see someone and know that it how others likely truly see him.

and she's poor born, and she's female. She's like the most bastard broken thing in Westeros. I'm curious to see how much she'll impact him.

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Who would think a young girl who is physically beaten by armored adult men anytime she is assertive would become more passive with the time?

Seriously, people complain that she is stupid but their "solutions" basically call for her to act without any sense of self preservation.

I take it you agree that she's become more passive, then?

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I take it you agree that she's become more passive, then?

Yes, because that is the intelligent thing to do.

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Tyrion is bitter, not whiny, and sometimes angry about aspects of his life, although he can also be very funny and enjoy himself immensely. He'll stand up to and insult those who treat him poorly. But he isn't passive as a consequence of that bitterness, and doesn't routinely retreat into internal fantasies. He sometimes gets down emotionally, but he always bounces back with determination and action. Nor -- and this is important -- does he let that bitterness blind him to the suffering of others. He talks to Jon about making bastardy his armor. He makes a saddle for Bran. He gets angry when another girl gets beaten up instead of Shae. Not because he cares about her, but because it's just wrong. He steps in to defend Sansa from being beaten, etc..

Now, he's a man in his mid-20's (book) or 30's (show) so you'd expect him to have a more developed, stronger character than a girl Sansa's age. But again, that's kind of the point. He's just more interesting/entertaining to most, and age being part of the reason doesn't change that.

You do realize that he is a in position of extreme power for the majority of the series, thus he can actively change his settings while Sansa has no power and thus cannot.

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Yes, because that is the intelligent thing to do.

It is the natural, realistic thing to do. The smart thing is to turn into a Varys or a Littlefinger but I think that is a little out of reach for Sansa w/o training.

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Where is Tyrion in power of his own?

All of Tyrions power comes from

  • his father Tywin who despises Tyrion and basically deposes Tyrion and takes away T's toy soldiers at will,
  • His maleness - which he is a shockingly poor exemplar of for his society.

The only thing he has to call his own is his self cultivated mind.

Sansa postion similarly derives from -

  • Her birth
  • her complete conformity to the Westerosi female idea, which she does beautifully.

The only thing that will save her is if she can cultivate her mind to be a better at manipulating rather than being manipulated.

I think they've got a lot in common, Tyrion has just been at it longer.

ETA: Clarity

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You do realize that he is a position of extreme power for the majority of the series, thus he can actively change his settings while Sansa has no power and thus cannot.

Sure, but what's that got to do with anything? The fact remains that she feels sorry for herself, and does little. He sometimes feels sorry for himself, but does a lot. That's why people don't see them the same.

Also, at Tyrion's lowest point, when he's sitting in a dungeon getting ready to die (which was a much worse position than Sansa's) and the opportunity came to escape, he instead choce to take a much greater risk by going up to his father's chambers for revenge. So even when he wasn't in a position of power, he took a much greater risk and chose to act more assertively. He's not just not a passive personality.

The truth is that we know Tyrion will act assertively because he has done so. But we don't know that Sansa will because she really hasn't. All we can do is speculate that, once out from under the thumb of the Lannisters and KL, she'll become much more assertive. But we don't know that she'll do that. Unless we've read AFFC, in which case....

We'd know that despite no longer being under the thumb of the Lannisters, she still fails to speak up and identify herself when the Lords Declarant arrive at the Eyrie. She continues to allow herself to be manipulated, this time by LF

.

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Where is Tyrion in power of his own?

All of Tyrions power comes from

  • his father Tywin who despises Tyrion and basically deposes Tyrion and took away T's toy soldiers at will,
  • His maleness - which he is a shockingly poor exemplar of for his society.

The only thing he has to call his own is his self cultivated mind.

Daddy Tywin might hate Tyrion personaly but he almost always has his back covered. Even when Tyrion "killed" Tywin's grandson does Tywin plan to protect Tyrion frim death.

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Unless we've read AFFC, in which case....

We'd know that despite no longer being under the thumb of the Lannisters, she still fails to speak up and identify herself when the Lords Declarant arrive at the Eyrie. She continues to allow herself to be manipulated, this time by LF

.

First she gets blamed for being too trusting, now she's being blamed for being not trusting enough? She considered asking for their help, but didn't want to reveal herself since they hadn't done anything for her family before, and the war is basically over as far as she knows. That's a perfectly rational calculation, particularly since the best case scenario hinges on the Vale lords being gallant, true knights, which the narrative has disabused her of (and fans have ridiculed her for) believing in.

Where is Tyrion in power of his own?

All of Tyrions power comes from

  • his father Tywin who despises Tyrion and basically deposes Tyrion and takes away T's toy soldiers at will,
  • His maleness - which he is a shockingly poor exemplar of for his society.

The only thing he has to call his own is his self cultivated mind.

Sansa postion similarly derives from -

  • Her birth
  • her complete conformity to the Westerosi female idea, which she does beautifully.

The only thing that will save her is if she can cultivate her mind to be a better at manipulating rather than being manipulated.

I think they've got a lot in common, Tyrion has just been at it longer.

Tyrion's power may not be "his own", but he has his father's power for most of the series so far. Sansa doesn't.

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I'm not sure that that top quote actually is mine, so I can't address it except to actually agree with you. I think it makes total sense that she doesn't trust Tyrion. He wasn't as horrible to her as others, but he is a Lannister. And I agree that I don't see what people thought she would have gotten out of revealing herself to the Lord's declarent. We know how shifty LF is and that he ruined her Tyrell engagement, but from her point of view he is the only person that has delivered on getting her out of King's Landing. I personally don't blame her for having a learning curve.

And I think in the TV series did such a terrible bait and switch on her that the TV viewers won't hate her for not being totally gaga over the marriage.

And for the second point that goes into that "which one is the bigger victim" path that I don't think all that interesting. I think it is really easy to go tit-for-tat with all the protagonists (POV-ers) as to who Westeros has wronged the most. What I do think is by looking at the similarities in their story we can start to suss out what grrm world-view is and therefore try to make feeble prediction about where the heck this story is going!

I think the linking of these characters is pretty amazingly thought provoking and shouldn't be addressed with horror by super-fans of either.

Unless you want to talk about that in terms of Fatherhood in Westeros - what that means, what makes a good Father, are you better off being the child of a noble (both in blood and behavior) Father or not... but I think that is a different thread.

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I'm not sure that that top quote actually is mine

It's not. Don't know how that happened. I fixed that.

I hadn't actually given a huge amount of thought to this prior to the issue being raised here, but I think Sansa not outing herself to Lord Royce is actually a notable piece of character development. The earlier Sansa would have trusted implicitly that her dad's old war buddy, with his cool nickname, handsome sons, and magic armour would be a hero who'd champion her cause against all comers -- this is, ironically, what many of the same people who lambaste Sansa's romanticism believe.

Instead, she makes a pretty rational calculation. She knows that Lord Royce is a Stark/Tully fan, and was enthusiastic to enter the war on their side -- but she also knows that, whereas he was anxious to get in when the Northern and Riverlords were in the field, and the Vale forces could have tipped the balance and won the day, at present those armies have been crushed, and the only forces still in the field against the Lannisters were token garrisons at Storm's End and Dragonstone, Stannis' larger (but still tiny) force on the Wall (which isn't actually fighting the Lannisters anymore), and the gallant but doomed garrisons at Riverrun and Raventree Hall. The Westerlands, Reach, Crownlands, Riverlands, Dorne, and North are either allied with the Lannisters or occupied by them. The war's over. She'd be asking Royce and his fellow lords to raise their banners against the Iron Throne at the point where the Iron Throne now firmly controls the entire country, more or less exclusively for her sake.

Maybe Bronze Yohn would have done just that, for honour's sake, since, notwithstanding the series' deconstructive elements, we've seen that there are indeed true knights and lords in the Seven Kingdoms, who value such things quite a lot. We'll see what he does in the coming books -- but by the time Royce and co. are faced with any such opportunity, the strategic outlook will have changed considerably, with the seemingly invincible Lannister/Tyrell alliance on the verge of dissolution, the arrival of the Golden Company and the potential Dornish revolt, etc.

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Yes, you are. Non-shippers don't give two thoughts about San-San, either now or in a few years.

Er, but you're not a shipper....

I thought a shipper was someone who wanted and believed that two particular fictional characters would become definitely romantically involved; not a reader who looked at a character and the possible romantic/marital entanglements facing him/her and tried to mentally assess the pairing....Guess I'm wrong :cool4: . So that means I ship Sansa and Sandor (plenty of feeling there, but prospects are dim), Sansa and Willas (would have liked to see it if Willas was the way his grandmother and sister described, but we probably never will), Sansa and Littlefinger (is sorta happening, but ewww), Sansa and Harry the Heir (might happen; Harry doesn't sound like much of a prize, and Sansa doesn't particularly want him), Sansa and Tyrion (still up in the air; but they'd probably make better allies than spouses); everyone who's ever been proposed for Sansa or romantically/sexually interested in her?

And I must be a Jon/Val shipper, a Jon/Ygritte shipper, a Jon/Daenerys shipper, a Daenerys/Jorah shipper, a Daenerys/Aegon shipper, etc.; because at one time or another I've thought about the likelihood of those pairings happening, why they would or won't (mostly won't, except of course Jon/Ygritte and possibly Jon/Daenerys but that would be cliched)...Not to mention Jaime/Brienne; which could happen, or not, for various reasons.

I'll continue to indulge in speculation about future romantic pairings between characters as I like, it's part of the fun of reading about them. I try to be reasonable when I do; I'm a romantic but not an idiot; and think about why would this pairing work, or not.

So I guess I don't care whether you call me a shipper or not. I think I 'ship' Sansa/Sandor about as much as GRRM ships them. I don't see why my evaluation of ASoIaF characters' possible romantic pairings should really affect your, or anyone's, interpretation of what I say here. It's not like I'm basing all of Sansa's character development, book or TV show, on her true love (?!) for Sandor, because that would be incorrect (she's too young to even understand her feelings for the Hound or have true love for anyone - yet).

Back to the topic. I don't think book-Sansa is boring, totally passive, or stupid. TV-Sansa is somewhat less appealing to me as a character, but I still want to see what they do with her. And I wish they had followed the book more in the development of the Tyrion/Sansa relationship; there would be far more intense drama right before and during Sansa's wedding.

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