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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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I acknowledge that they do present a kinder version of Tyrion in the show than the books. It isn't made clear enough that there are a multitude of benefits he stands to gain by wedding and bedding her. She is said to be the "key to the north" but it isn't spelled out that Tyrion and Sansa's son would become the most powerful man in the north- advancement that Tyrion could never hope for otherwise.

It could still come up in 3x07. Presumably Shae demands some explanation from him as to why he's going through with this, so maybe his interest in being Lord Protector of Winterfell is mentioned. However, as it is on the show, there's been no indication that TV Tyrion has any interest whatsoever in Sansa's claim. The suggestion seems to be that he's just as angry about Tywin ordering him to marry Sansa as Cersei is about being ordered to marry Loras. That could change, of course; I expect Shae will accuse him of wanting Sansa, and it might be left ambiguous whether he's as disgusted by the marriage as he appears to be in 3x06. As it is, though, I think the average TV viewer would assume that Tyrion is appalled at the engagement, is being forced to marry Sansa, and has no interest either in her or her claim.

But at the same time, virtually all of those benefits require the wedding and the bedding. He never goes through with the latter of those rituals.

That's the other thing, though. As of 3x06, we have no idea what a "bedding" is, which means that Tyrion sparing Sansa the bedding will be meaningless in the context of the show. Either they run through some really hasty exposition in 3x07 to cover their tracks, or it will be cut altogether.

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Unless Tyrion is after all that a marriage to Sansa can offer him, then he really has no story arch in during season3. He's really just her babysitter, with no moral event horizon wedding night choice. Sansa has more going on as she gets repeated visuals of Littlefinger's boat.

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Tyrion finds out he's to wed Sansa Stark and the next POV chapter we have in KL is Sansa's marriage to Tyrion.

Where did you come up with weeks?

Even if it is not weeks, the fact of the matter is he never actually makes anytime to warn her instead he falls in line with his family's plan to take her by surprise.

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But at the same time, virtually all of those benefits require the wedding and the bedding. He never goes through with the latter of those rituals. How much are they really whitewashing him if its going to end the same way- with an unconsummated marriage? They have glossed some of Tyrion's nastier aspects, but I don't think the Sansa marriage is where the battle ought to be fought. It seems to be the place where he actually does an act of kindness that gives him no benefit at all. I'll wait to see if they spare Shae or something to say they've gone too far.

The issue is that is just another facet that they have erased that presents an unfavorable image of him, thus it is just something that has been built up as he has yet done anything that presents any greyness or darkness. Honestly, he comes off more like the son of Ned Stark then Tywin Lannister in the TV Show.

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what's wrong with this whitewashing of Tyrion? Eddard 2.0 is something viewers probably need, with Eddard Jr's fate sealed in this episode (though I know that's not what people will think. When I asked my brother his predictions, he said "well now Robb's got a bunch more guys to fight for him." Oh my sweet summer child...)

And from a strictly TV point of view, won't a whitewashed Tyrion killing Shae be even more shocking and out of character? Will be great. Hopefully they'll keep it.

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I would have liked to watch the scene of Sansa finding out ten minutes before the wedding, because I wanted to see what acting Sophie could have offered. I'm ok with the change, BUT, this doesn't look as dramatic as the books (and I think it should be) as the Lannister look more considered than they really are, as they told her in advance, and now she has the time to prepare (some non-readers would even say 'find a way to escape') to what is to come. In books, we realise how much of a cruel s.o.b. Cersei, the whole court and even the Tyrells are, as not only they didn't care that Sansa was happily believing they were preparing her wedding to a Tyrell, but they didn't even bother to inform her that she was going to marry until the very same day. Tywin said it himself the previous episode, he doesn't care about her happiness, why would they bother informing her?

ETA: Also, I'm ok, with Tyrion being portrayed less dark: it would make a real shock what it's going to happen later with his character.

This is doubly strange when it's discussed in this very same episode that you can't force a man into a marriage agreement. Not even a king can do that, as King Robb couldn't force Edmure into marrying that Frey girl, and yet somehow Tywin can force Tyrion into a marriage?

there is different kinds of "forcing" and Robb and Tywin are different kind of people, also Sansa and Edmure are different situations.

Sansa is pretty much the Lannister's hostage, they CAN make her do stuff by threaten her to beat her or killing anyone if she doesn't' agree. They can't force her to say her vows but they can't tell her that if she doesn't, they would kill, dunno, Shae, for example, and she would do it willingly to save her life. Also, Tywin is a very powerful man: if Tyrion or Cersei say 'no', there will be consequences for the both of them. Edmure isn't a hostage, nor a war prisoner, he's a free noble man, and Robb can't drag him to a septon and make him say his vows nor threaten him into do it.

Actually, IRL, when you are saying your vows in a Church, the priest ask you "are you here willingly?". Many people are forced to marry for many reasons: the circumstances force them but they go by t heir own will.

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Maybe TV Tyrion doesn't murder Shae and the Lannisters hand her over to the Boltons to serve as fake Arya.

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what's wrong with this whitewashing of Tyrion? Eddard 2.0 is something viewers probably need, with Eddard Jr's fate sealed in this episode (though I know that's not what people will think. When I asked my brother his predictions, he said "well now Robb's got a bunch more guys to fight for him." Oh my sweet summer child...)

And from a strictly TV point of view, won't a whitewashed Tyrion killing Shae be even more shocking and out of character? Will be great. Hopefully they'll keep it.

Because it fundamentally changes Tyrion's entire character. Especially, in regards to the aspect that makes him such a compelling character that of his conflicted nature. Quite frankly, Tyrion absolutely bores me in the TV series as it obvious that the show won't display him without any flaws so he comes of as a semi-sue. In how, he has the brains of Tywin but the honor of Ned thus he is the perfect human being.

If they need Ned 2.0 we have both Robb and Jon for that, both characters who actually fit that description in the books.

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I was talking specifically about Tyrion, not Sansa.

"...that you can't force a man into a marriage agreement."

"...and yet somehow Tywin can force Tyrion into a marriage?"

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Yeah, too bad. I liked the conversation she had with Cersei.

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I was talking specifically about Tyrion, not Sansa.

"...that you can't force a man into a marriage agreement."

"...and yet somehow Tywin can force Tyrion into a marriage?"

Ah, ok. Although I think they meant no one, not even a King, can make a man to accept a marriage by ordering him to do it. If the King says to you "I order you to marry her" is not the same as "if you don't marry her, I will kill your family". The first one is ordering the man to marry, the second one, is making a threat, but the man would willingly marry in order to save his family. Tyrion is doing it because no one says not to Tywin, knowing there would be consequences, not only personal but also, political, as the Tyrells could get first to her, marry her to Loras and get the North. I wouldn't want to see what Tywin would do if that ever happens.

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Has Sansa been told about Winterfell being burned or her brothers' deaths yet?

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Has Sansa been told about Winterfell being burned or her brothers' deaths yet?

That's the crazymaking thing (well, one of many crazymaking things): we don't know.

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the most logical assumption is that she hasn't be told yet. she says she wants to go home like she doesn't know that winterfell is no more. and besides she seems happy all the time this season. it wouldn't be right not to have a mourning scene. but then again if the showrunners don't care that much about Sansa...

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I think he change suits the TV show, its fits in the character they have Tyrion changed in.

But this also presents oppertunities: The synopsis for the next epiode says something about Sansa deals over her faith, GRRM wrote it and because we have no inside in the characters heads like in the books there must be other ways of howing how Sansa feels about all of it. Otherwise Sansa would only be the girl who cried at the wedding

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Was there a point to this change though, besides making Tyrion look even better?

I can't think of a reason for it, nor do I get cutting the scene short.

Spitballing here, but 3x06 was a pretty packed episode, so maybe they decided there wasn't time for it. Besides, we already have a really good idea of how Tyrion's going to tell her (in the most awkward and chagrined manner possible), how Sansa's going to react to the news (devastation and horror), and how Shae's going to react to the news (barely suppressed anger), and all that was communicated in one single dialogue-free shot of Sansa and Shae watching Littlefinger's ship depart: Sansa is tearful and devastated, Shae looks pissed but resigned.

As for why Sansa got some advance notice in the show--as opposed to finding out the day of her wedding--maybe the writers wanted to give Sansa some space to air her thoughts about the marriage, things we only sort of got in passing from her POV thoughts in the wedding chapter in the books. If there's a scene with a character she can bounce her feelings off in 3x07, we might get a better sense of her thoughts and feelings (about the Lannisters wanting to marry her for her claim, and similar) than if we just saw her looking panicked and horrified the day of her wedding.

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I was actually really surprised that they had Tyrion tell Sansa. It seemed like the surprise moment in the books was almost intentionally "made-for-tv" with the fast pacing and dramatic surprise. I don't really care that Tyrion tells Sansa...it just seems like a big missed opportunity for the directors.

I agree. This was really the only change in the episode that bothered me. It was such a shock in the books when Sansa finds out that it would have made for great TV, especially if they let her believe she was marrying Loras and then see Tyrion at the alter.

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Was there a point to this change though, besides making Tyrion look even better?

I can't think of a reason for it, nor do I get cutting the scene short.

Seeing how they cut away even before Tyrion tells her thus denying us the chance to witness Sophia or Peter act out what could be an extremely emotional scene it does seem that was the only purpose.

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Spitballing here, but 3x06 was a pretty packed episode, so maybe they decided there wasn't time for it. Besides, we already have a really good idea of how Tyrion's going to tell her (in the most awkward and chagrined manner possible), how Sansa's going to react to the news (devastation and horror), and how Shae's going to react to the news (barely suppressed anger), and all that was communicated in one single dialogue-free shot of Sansa and Shae watching Littlefinger's ship depart: Sansa is tearful and devastated, Shae looks pissed but resigned.

As for why Sansa got some advance notice in the show--as opposed to finding out the day of her wedding--maybe the writers wanted to give Sansa some space to air her thoughts about the marriage, things we only sort of got in passing from her POV thoughts in the wedding chapter in the books. If there's a scene with a character she can bounce her feelings off in 3x07, we might get a better sense of her thoughts and feelings (about the Lannisters wanting to marry her for her claim, and similar) than if we just saw her looking panicked and horrified the day of her wedding.

You give some good reason why the show runners went in this direction but part of what was so great about the surprise wedding was precisely her (and our) panic and horror. There could always be room for introspection after the big wedding reveal.

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