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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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You give some good reason why the show runners went in this direction but part of what was so great about the surprise wedding was precisely her (and our) panic and horror. There could always be room for introspection after the big wedding reveal.

I agree with this, it was utterly heartbreaking seeing Sansa find out that way. Not that I want the poor girl to suffer more, but it was just so emotional and all. I hope for her wedding Cersei acts closer to her book part and says some cruel things.

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Assuming Shae and Tyrion have some sort of blowout over the engagement--and I think we can assume that they will, at this point--we might get a sense of what exactly he said to her. I doubt the manner of his delivery of the news would be cruel and brutally blunt, as Cersei's was.

I don't see how he could avoid being cruel... it's a cruel thing. IIRC correctly the impetus for Cersei telling Sansa she would be beaten and dragged to the altar was Sansa saying 'No'.

Suppose Sansa says 'No' in this TV conversation. How can Tyrion respond except by doing just as Book!Cersei did and explicitly state the consequences of saying 'No'?

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I agree with this, it was utterly heartbreaking seeing Sansa find out that way. Not that I want the poor girl to suffer more, but it was just so emotional and all. I hope for her wedding Cersei acts closer to her book part and says some cruel things.

Yes, TV-Cersei hasn't been nearly as cruel as book-Cersei.

Also, the forced wedding and the way it crushed all of her girlhood dreams of romance and married life in an instant was probably the single worst thing the Lannisters had done to Sansa. WE know Tyrion is not bad but to Sansa he was the Imp and a Lannister. Her knowing about all this beforehand lessens that impact and adds an interaction with Tyrion that she had not had in the books.

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I don't see how he could avoid being cruel... it's a cruel thing. IIRC correctly the impetus for Cersei telling Sansa she would be beaten and dragged to the altar was Sansa saying 'No'.

Suppose Sansa says 'No' in this TV conversation. How can Tyrion respond except by doing just as Book!Cersei did and explicitly state the consequences of saying 'No'?

Because Tyrion would tell her that it wasn't his idea and is out of his hands. He would not say it as cruelly as Cersei. He would soften the blow and probably not scare her with ideas of beatings unless it was a warning that OTHERS, not him, would force her. He would separate himself from it all and show her that he is as powerless as she is in this case. In the book, she didn't know that it was not his idea or that he was less than thrilled with the whole thing.

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But at the same time, virtually all of those benefits require the wedding and the bedding. He never goes through with the latter of those rituals. How much are they really whitewashing him if its going to end the same way- with an unconsummated marriage? They have glossed some of Tyrion's nastier aspects, but I don't think the Sansa marriage is where the battle ought to be fought. It seems to be the place where he actually does an act of kindness that gives him no benefit at all. I'll wait to see if they spare Shae or something to say they've gone too far.

For me, Book!Tyrion's decision to wed Sansa is one of his greatest blunders so this seems like a *lot* of whitewashing. When he's been persuaded to go through with the marriage, he believes and hopes that he will get Winterfell and a beautiful, willing wife. The decision to not bed Sansa is a last minute thing... he was honestly hoping everything would work out.

Of course things don't work out. In one of their last chapters together Tyrion thinks something like 'This is the wife they've given me for all my life and she hates me.' Truthfully, Tyrion willingly went into that mess and didn't see the painfully inevitable outcome.

This plays into one of his great flaws. Book!Tyrion is generally unable to see women realistically, and his marriage to Sansa is maybe one of the clearest examples of that (along with his relationship with Book!Shae).

The show dramatically changes this. TV!Tyrion doesn't seem to have this problem. His relationship with Shae is vastly different and now he's a fellow victim along with Sansa.

The trouble is that Tyrion's dysfunction with women is, for me, a major, deep part of his character. I think a lot of the things Book!Tyrion does are starting to seem completely out of character for TV!Tyrion.

I'm not sure I like this new character as much. Oh well. I'm looking forward to the next episode anyways.

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There is one thing that is bugging me about when Olenna and Tywin are brokering the deal...

Given that in show canon, Loras is the sole male heir to Highgarden, why, on the grace of the Seven, would Olenna let Tywin name him to the Kingsguard without a fight???? When Aerys named Jaime it only went through because Jaime accepted it yeah? He was but a boy in thrall of the glory of serving as a KG and a bit of Aerys bullying behind Tywin's back made it happen.

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As mainly a show watcher (Just finished GOT book), I was actually so happy when they cut away the part where they told her. Sansa's already been through enough, and as a show watcher, I wouldn't stand having to see him break her like that. It was bad enough watching her reaction afterwards. Book readers don't necessarily understand how the story is perceived by show watchers..

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Honestly I don't care about Tyrion being whitewashed except for the fact that there are a lot of morons out there who will think Sansa's an 'ungrateful fool' or any array of nastier descriptors for being upset about the marriage. Just because Tyrion's a nice guy, especiall compared to Joffrey, doesn't mean Sansa should be thanking the gods she got paired with him.

And another thing about this whole plot change - It was Littlefinger's ship she watched sail away, right? So what the hell do they plan on doing with Sansa down the line? Because obviously her going with Petyr was huge in the books, so unless he comes back for her...?

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I wonder how Sansa will behave at the wedding. In the books she wasn't very graceful, but she was only a child and very much shocked what just had happened (she suddenly marrying Tyrion instead of a Tyrell), so I couldn't blame her.

But having Tyrion being considerate enough to actually warn her beforehand, Sansa can't refuse to kneel down etc without coming across as petulant and spiteful. Oh well, maybe they'll have her acting up anyway, so the viewers would feel sorry for their poor Tyrion.

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I think the reason they had him tell her is simply due to trying to drag a plot that lasted, what, two, three chapters in the book over four episodes. Trying to milk it for all the drama its worth.

I do like how they framed Sansa's marriage to Loras as her ticket out of King's Landing. It will help people sympathise with her marriage to Tyrion, since it traps her permanently in King's Landing.

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I hated this too. I turned off the TV after I saw Sansa crying.

Has Sansa been told about Winterfell being burned or her brothers' deaths yet?

I don't think so since she was asking Shae just before Tyrion comes in if the Tyrells would let her bring her brothers to visit.

For me, Book!Tyrion's decision to wed Sansa is one of his greatest blunders so this seems like a *lot* of whitewashing. When he's been persuaded to go through with the marriage, he believes and hopes that he will get Winterfell and a beautiful, willing wife. The decision to not bed Sansa is a last minute thing... he was honestly hoping everything would work out.

Of course things don't work out. In one of their last chapters together Tyrion thinks something like 'This is the wife they've given me for all my life and she hates me.' Truthfully, Tyrion willingly went into that mess and didn't see the painfully inevitable outcome.

This plays into one of his great flaws. Book!Tyrion is generally unable to see women realistically, and his marriage to Sansa is maybe one of the clearest examples of that (along with his relationship with Book!Shae).

The show dramatically changes this. TV!Tyrion doesn't seem to have this problem. His relationship with Shae is vastly different and now he's a fellow victim along with Sansa.

The trouble is that Tyrion's dysfunction with women is, for me, a major, deep part of his character. I think a lot of the things Book!Tyrion does are starting to seem completely out of character for TV!Tyrion.

I'm not sure I like this new charater as much. Oh well. I'm looking forward to the next episode anyways.

Exactly! GRRM has said that he is interested in writing characters that are conflicted, using the quote by Faulkner of showing the human heart in conflict with itself. We are not seeing this in Tyrion at all. In fact, they have also made Cersei less grey which I don't buy either. There is no way book Cersei would ever let Tyrion believe that Joff was the one who ordered Moore to kill him. She protected every despicable thing Joff did in the books!

It also ruins Sansa's one great act of defiance to the wedding in the books when she refuses to kneel so that Tyrion can put the cloak on her. I doubt they will have Sansa refusing to kneel now as it would make her look whiny and spiteful to do so.

(edited for grammar and spelling)

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And another thing about this whole plot change - It was Littlefinger's ship she watched sail away, right? So what the hell do they plan on doing with Sansa down the line? Because obviously her going with Petyr was huge in the books, so unless he comes back for her...?

Littlefinger said last week that he and Sansa would "talk more of this when I return". So in-show his plan is obviously to sail off to the Vale, get things arranged with Lysa, make a quick trip back to King's Landing (probably for episode 10) where the now-married Sansa will be much more receptive to his offer, and give her some of the details for her escape on Joffrey's wedding, then go back to the Vale to play out the scheme like he did in the books.

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one point I want to bring up.

this is the first time they've shown Sansa in a "sexual " manner. ie when she was undressing , we got some cleavage that i was surprised at.

I dont know if its to lead up to Tyrion's arousal on the wedding night. but it was definitely deliberate after keeping her under literal wraps for the season.,

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In the book, the wedding HAD to be a surprise because the Tyrell's couldn't know about it. For the show, they changed it to where Tywin gives the QoT a choice of either marrying Loras to Cersei or naming him into the Kingsguard. Since the QoT refuses the marriage, Loras is named as a Kingsguard member and the Tyrell's plans to marry Sansa to him are gone anyway. Since Loras is only Tyrell male/heir in the show, there was no real need for a secret shotgun wedding once he was removed from the picture.

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For me, Book!Tyrion's decision to wed Sansa is one of his greatest blunders so this seems like a *lot* of whitewashing. When he's been persuaded to go through with the marriage, he believes and hopes that he will get Winterfell and a beautiful, willing wife. The decision to not bed Sansa is a last minute thing... he was honestly hoping everything would work out.

Of course things don't work out. In one of their last chapters together Tyrion thinks something like 'This is the wife they've given me for all my life and she hates me.' Truthfully, Tyrion willingly went into that mess and didn't see the painfully inevitable outcome.

This plays into one of his great flaws. Book!Tyrion is generally unable to see women realistically, and his marriage to Sansa is maybe one of the clearest examples of that (along with his relationship with Book!Shae).

The show dramatically changes this. TV!Tyrion doesn't seem to have this problem. His relationship with Shae is vastly different and now he's a fellow victim along with Sansa.

The trouble is that Tyrion's dysfunction with women is, for me, a major, deep part of his character. I think a lot of the things Book!Tyrion does are starting to seem completely out of character for TV!Tyrion.

I'm not sure I like this new charater as much. Oh well. I'm looking forward to the next episode anyways.

:agree:

They are definitely making Tyrion kinder for lack of a better word. I was not impressed with Tyrion in the book and his view and thoughts going into the marriage with Sansa. But I think it makes him a much more interesting character. No one watching really feels all that bad for Sansa (if they haven't read the books) because they like Tyrion so much and think he'll actually be good for her.

I also was hoping to see the scene play out like it did in the books. Rather than having Joffrey shoot arrows into Ros, they could have had him being the one to force Sansa to the marriage with Tyrion if they didn't want it to be Cersei and we still would have had our reminder that Joffrey is an ass to be disliked.

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Littlefinger said last week that he and Sansa would "talk more of this when I return". So in-show his plan is obviously to sail off to the Vale, get things arranged with Lysa, make a quick trip back to King's Landing (probably for episode 10) where the now-married Sansa will be much more receptive to his offer, and give her some of the details for her escape on Joffrey's wedding, then go back to the Vale to play out the scheme like he did in the books.

No, D & D wants the audience to believe that her chance to leave with Littlefinger is gone. They'll likely have Sir Dontos meet with her after her wedding to Tyrion and tell her that he has a way to get her back home. And then later, once Littlefinger is revealed to be the driving force, there will be an "OH!" moment. There is no point in telling the audience (again) that Littlefinger is the one to get her out. Now that his initial plans have been spoiled, they'll leave the viewers believing that he's out of it.

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No, D & D wants the audience to believe that her chance to leave with Littlefinger is gone. They'll likely have Sir Dontos meet with her after her wedding to Tyrion and tell her that he has a way to get her back home. And then later, once Littlefinger is revealed to be the driving force, there will be an "OH!" moment. There is no point in telling the audience (again) that Littlefinger is the one to get her out. Now that his initial plans have been spoiled, they'll leave the viewers believing that he's out of it.

Yes I have been thinking this too since last week. People will have forgotten all about Dontos so when he shows up everyone will be confused about him and why he is trying to help her. He won't have any noted connection to LF so when LF reveals himself as her savior it will be a real shock.

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Littlefinger said last week that he and Sansa would "talk more of this when I return". So in-show his plan is obviously to sail off to the Vale, get things arranged with Lysa, make a quick trip back to King's Landing (probably for episode 10) where the now-married Sansa will be much more receptive to his offer, and give her some of the details for her escape on Joffrey's wedding, then go back to the Vale to play out the scheme like he did in the books.

ooh thanks, i guess i missed him saying 'when he returns'

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I hated that they told her so far ahead of time. That would have been a great scene for Lena as Cersei and it takes the shock away. I agree, they are trying to make Tyrion look better. I don't agree with this change at all. And Sansa's weeping was awful. Just standing there crying... The scene in the books where she finds out the morning of is much more powerful and I have no idea why they couldn't leave it be. I guess so tyrion doesn't look so bad? He's still a lannister! Come on!

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Telling her ahead of time can work - Otherwise they would have to put the wedding in episode 6, stall the plot and may be important regarding Shae's reaction. I agree, however, that Sansa's weeping was awful and I would have liked to see the scene when Tyrion tells both of them about the wedding.

What I really disliked is how they reduced Sansa's IQ by 50 or more by wondering if they'll let her family go to the wedding (with Loras). They been showing her as not as dumb as expected, specially by having Loras spilling the beans to a random squire. And, suddenly, they make her as dumb as S01E01 Sansa with that line.

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