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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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I wish we could still have the scene with Cersei dragging Sansa to her own wedding. Maybe Sansa will try to back out of it in the last minute and then Cersei threatens to have her beaten if she doesn't obey? Eh, just wishful thinking on my part because I really liked this part in the book and hope that it was kept on the show even though it's under a different context *shrugs*

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Telling her ahead of time can work - Otherwise they would have to put the wedding in episode 6, stall the plot and may be important regarding Shae's reaction. I agree, however, that Sansa's weeping was awful and I would have liked to see the scene when Tyrion tells both of them about the wedding.

What I really disliked is how they reduced Sansa's IQ by 50 or more by wondering if they'll let her family go to the wedding (with Loras). They been showing her as not as dumb as expected, specially by having Loras spilling the beans to a random squire. And, suddenly, they make her as dumb as S01E01 Sansa with that line.

I got the impression she already knew the answer, she just wanted someone to say it out loud.

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No, D & D wants the audience to believe that her chance to leave with Littlefinger is gone.

The "when I return" line suggests otherwise to me, as does Littlefinger's indication to Varys that his interest in Sansa isn't finished.

In the books there was no particular indication that Littlefinger was interested in Sansa prior to her extraction. That's not the case in the show, and if Dontos shows up, Littlefinger's the only real candidate for the man behind it.

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Telling her ahead of time can work - Otherwise they would have to put the wedding in episode 6, stall the plot and may be important regarding Shae's reaction. I agree, however, that Sansa's weeping was awful and I would have liked to see the scene when Tyrion tells both of them about the wedding.

What I really disliked is how they reduced Sansa's IQ by 50 or more by wondering if they'll let her family go to the wedding (with Loras). They been showing her as not as dumb as expected, specially by having Loras spilling the beans to a random squire. And, suddenly, they make her as dumb as S01E01 Sansa with that line.

Her asking was probably meant to relay how comfortable she was in her situation with the Tyrells. Her automatic response had always been to say that her Brother and Mother were traitors, but since she feels that she's with friends, she isn't as guarded with her random thoughts.

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The "when I return" line suggests otherwise to me, as does Littlefinger's indication to Varys that his interest in Sansa isn't finished.

In the books there was no particular indication that Littlefinger was interested in Sansa prior to her extraction. That's not the case in the show, and if Dontos shows up, Littlefinger's the only real candidate for the man behind it.

As far as the viewers are concerned, Littlefinger has already been found out. We also just witnessed Sansa crying as he sailed away. In there minds, that ship has already sailed (yeah, I went there). They also made it plan that the Tyrells also wanted Sansa. So, when Dontos shows up, the non-book audience will either think it's the Tyrells, Littlefinger or even someone else attempting to help her. Either way, it will have them guessing.

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Littlefinger leaving is still in line with book canon. Remember is SoS LF leaves for the Vale very early on, that's why Tyrion is made master of coin to begin with. He only returns to Kings Landing in secret after the PW to "rescue" Sansa.

So LF leaving is completely consistent with the books. And if the rumors about the return of Ser Dontos are true then he will likely return as Sansa's "savior", under the control of LF. Basically they are actually sticking very close to the books in that regard.

I'm surprised so many seem to think that the QoT rejected Tywin's threat to wed Loras to Cersei or see him put on the KG. I got the distinct impression that she specifically accepted it. Hence why she broke the pen that Tywin was using to prepare the order to have Loras join the Kingsguard. Sort of a way of saying "you don't need to write that, I'll go along with your offer."

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I'm surprised so many seem to think that the QoT rejected Tywin's threat to wed Loras to Cersei or see him put on the KG. I got the distinct impression that she specifically accepted it. Hence why she broke the pen that Tywin was using to prepare the order to have Loras join the Kingsguard. Sort of a way of saying "you don't need to write that, I'll go along with your offer."

I thought that he was about to write up a wedding contract. It wouldn't make any sense for them to agree for Loras to marry Cersei. I think the QoT was basically saying that she'd rather Loras end up in the KG than married to Cersei. Especially since Margery is to be queen.

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I thought that he was about to write up a wedding contract. It wouldn't make any sense for them to agree for Loras to marry Cersei. I think the QoT was basically saying that she'd rather Loras end up in the KG than married to Cersei. Especially since Margery is to be queen.

The way I saw it, they were talking about Loras and Cersei marrying from the beginning of the scene, and the QoT was rejecting it.

It wasn't until Tywin threatened to put Loras in the Kingsguard that he busted out the pen and paper. So I took it as, since the QoT was rejecting the offer, he was going to write an order to put Loras in the KG, and so she finally conceded. And she was basically saying the opposite, that she would rather Loras we'd Cersei than see him end up in the KG.

Edit: Just rewatched that scene. Tywin says "So, shall I draw up the order? Or do you consent to this match?" He was definitely about to write an order putting Loras in the KG. Lady Olenna breaking the pen was definitely her consenting to marry Loras to Cersei.

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I thought that he was about to write up a wedding contract. It wouldn't make any sense for them to agree for Loras to marry Cersei. I think the QoT was basically saying that she'd rather Loras end up in the KG than married to Cersei. Especially since Margery is to be queen.

Finally a man who lives up to his reputation, she says.

Basically he wins, in order not to have the Tyrell line die out with Loras, she agrees to have him marry Cersei, and stops him from writing up Loras' Kingsguard decree. He's not writing a marriage contract.

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Her asking was probably meant to relay how comfortable she was in her situation with the Tyrells. Her automatic response had always been to say that her Brother and Mother were traitors, but since she feels that she's with friends, she isn't as guarded with her random thoughts.

No. Her asking if they would let her invite her family really does make Sansa look like a complete moron. I couldn't believe they had those words come out of her mouth. With that one line they've reduced her IQ by about 100 points.

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Littlefinger leaving is still in line with book canon. Remember is SoS LF leaves for the Vale very early on, that's why Tyrion is made master of coin to begin with. He only returns to Kings Landing in secret after the PW to "rescue" Sansa.

So LF leaving is completely consistent with the books. And if the rumors about the return of Ser Dontos are true then he will likely return as Sansa's "savior", under the control of LF. Basically they are actually sticking very close to the books in that regard.

I'm surprised so many seem to think that the QoT rejected Tywin's threat to wed Loras to Cersei or see him put on the KG. I got the distinct impression that she specifically accepted it. Hence why she broke the pen that Tywin was using to prepare the order to have Loras join the Kingsguard. Sort of a way of saying "you don't need to write that, I'll go along with your offer."

I agree with all your points. Littlefinger does leave beforehand in the book as well. Sansa is smuggled out on a small boat (which is where Dontos goes overboard and revealed as just another pawn in the LF game). All of that can still happen in the context of how they're playing it out in the show.

Also, I agree that I think a lot of people were confused by Olenna's end remark and breaking Tywin's quill pen - she was in fact accepting the offer, not rejecting it. She even says "so rare to meet a man who actually does what he means" or something similar... meaning she takes Tywin's threat seriously and accepts the terms - no need for him to write that order. That is probably confusing because everyone knows from the books that Loras does in fact join the Kingsguard, so I'm not sure how that part will play out since on the show he's supposedly the only heir to highgarden (which I object to the change).

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The way I saw it, they were talking about Loras and Cersei marrying from the beginning of the scene, and the QoT was rejecting it.

It wasn't until Tywin threatened to put Loras in the Kingsguard that he busted out the pen and paper. So I took it as, since the QoT was rejecting the offer, he was going to write an order to put Loras in the KG, and so she finally conceded. And she was basically saying the opposite, that she would rather Loras we'd Cersei than see him end up in the KG.

I'll rewatch the episode when I get a chance, but that was my impression from that scene anyway.

I was left feeling at a loss as to what she decided. I didn't know if that meant the scene was supposed to be ambiguous or if the answer was badly conveyed or if I was just being an idiot for not getting it. Reflecting on it, I tend to agree that she was probably relenting to the betrothal because of the broken quill. I think a lot of my initial confusion comes from the fact that we know that in the book such a betrothal never occurs, and that the end result is that Loras will end up on the KG. As a book reader, this meant my reaction was "did not compute".

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I was talking specifically about Tyrion, not Sansa.

"...that you can't force a man into a marriage agreement."

"...and yet somehow Tywin can force Tyrion into a marriage?"

I think that just like in todays society, you have to separate formal laws (if there is one in Westeros regarding this) and practical reality. In short, I would have no problems telling Robb to show his orders if I didn't like them, I would not do so with Tywin Lannister.

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Littlefinger leaving is still in line with book canon. Remember is SoS LF leaves for the Vale very early on, that's why Tyrion is made master of coin to begin with. He only returns to Kings Landing in secret after the PW to "rescue" Sansa.

So LF leaving is completely consistent with the books. And if the rumors about the return of Ser Dontos are true then he will likely return as Sansa's "savior", under the control of LF. Basically they are actually sticking very close to the books in that regard.

I'm surprised so many seem to think that the QoT rejected Tywin's threat to wed Loras to Cersei or see him put on the KG. I got the distinct impression that she specifically accepted it. Hence why she broke the pen that Tywin was using to prepare the order to have Loras join the Kingsguard. Sort of a way of saying "you don't need to write that, I'll go along with your offer."

It may be consistent with book canon but the circumstances are different because Sansa was unaware of Littlefinger's role in her "escape" in the book so his presence or absence was of little consequence to her.

In addition the introduction of Dontos and her trust of him would be asinine at this point because the writers have done nothing to establish the character or a reason why they would have any type of relationship whatsoever (his only appearance that I can recall was the second season premiere).

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I seem to recall, maybe a podcast, it being said that some Dontos/Sansa scenes were filmed last season, but the actor was so bad, they were unusable.

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That is probably confusing because everyone knows from the books that Loras does in fact join the Kingsguard, so I'm not sure how that part will play out since on the show he's supposedly the only heir to highgarden (which I object to the change).

I agree that it is a little confusing right now as to why Loras still isn't in the KG. The only explanation I can think of at this point is that, while the QoT has accepted the match, Loras still hasn't.

It does seem interesting that in this same episode we get a line from Edmure saying that no man can be forced to marry against his will (or something along those lines). Perhaps when Loras is presented with the offer/threat he chooses the KG rather than Cersei. That would, IMHO anyway, be in line with his character afterall.

In addition the introduction of Dontos and her trust of him would be asinine at this point because the writers have done nothing to establish the character or a reason why they would have any type of relationship whatsoever (his only appearance that I can recall was the second season premiere).

I disagree. Reintroducing Dontos to Sansa as a potential way to help her escape, and her subsequently trusting him, could be passed off easily as an example of her increasing sense of desperation to escape Kings Landing and the Lannisters. She wants to escape, she needs to escape, and her trusting a drunk fool is an example of just how desperate she is to try to do that.

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Maybe TV Tyrion doesn't murder Shae and the Lannisters hand her over to the Boltons to serve as fake Arya.

Good God, I hope not!

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Good God, I hope not!

I think Talisa will take fake Arya's part

But on an other topic:

All who say Sansa could be seen as 'ungratefull' whatsoever I think she was told in the show so we can get a scene with her where it is explained. Her thoughts out of the book they can't show otherwise can be shown, so the viewers can understand her feeling and why the marriage is so horrible for her at the moment

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Good God, I hope not!

Yeah that would be horrible. I am more tolerant of the whitewashing of Tyrion than most. I think they can still capture the essential Tyrion by glossing some of the nastier aspects up until the moment he kills his father and Shae. But that scene itself is fundamental to Tyrion's character development going forward.

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