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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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so I fail to see how this one small scene change is making that big of a difference.

It is just everything added up together is making it so he is simply a good character without any greyness.

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Honestly, I think some people here are forgetting how relatively white Tyrion was as a character early in the books. Yes, he's a shade or two lighter on the show, but it's NOT a huge difference. In the books he gets progressively darker once we get into aSoS, until he's firmly grey.

He's not a static character, he has a bit of a downward arc. Let's not make the rash assumption just yet that D&D won't let that arc happen.

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I agree about Tyrion, but Cersei in the books was never grey, she's jet black.

I can understand that point of view. But the main point I wanted to make was that I don't the way the creators of the show are getting rid of Cersei's paranoid character. For me, her most defining trait was the way she always did cruel things, and then painted herself as the victim in her own head. We're completely missing that in the show. In the books, Cersei does crazy things, and doesn't realize how paranoid and cruel she's becoming. In the series, Joffrey does all those crazy cruel things, like killing the bastards, and targeting Tyrion. Cersei just wrings her hands and is completely powerless to stop it.

Normal complete monster types aren't given what seemed like a third of a whole book's PoVs so that we had to read this already crazy lady's descent into further levels of madness. The reason why Cersei draws so much hate is because she's unreasonably stupid. To the degree where it's almost unbelievable at times. Joff, Ramsay, they're just cruel and vile people. Cersei draws a lot of hate because having to read someone's incredibly delusional thoughts is maddening.

I don't think this is completely true. Cersei was maddening even before she became so stupid. People hated her at the end of AGOT, because she's a villain, worst of all because she's a villain who thinks she's the victim because everyone else is 'less' than her and has to do her bidding. I hate the way the show takes that part of her personality to give to Joffrey. I know Cersei degenerated as a villain even in the books, especially AFFC, but the show does is so much earlier, and it's much more frustrating.

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Honestly, I think some people here are forgetting how relatively white Tyrion was as a character early in the books. Yes, he's a shade or two lighter on the show, but it's NOT a huge difference. In the books he gets progressively darker once we get into aSoS, until he's firmly grey.

Tyrion was always somewhat grey even before ASOS with things such as arming the Vale Mountain People to raid and pillage the Vale's smallfolk, breaking Marillion's fingers, giving Joffrey the antler men, slapping Shae, killing Simon, threatening to beat and rape Tommen, etc.

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OK, forgot about the Tommen thing, but that wouldn't have played well on TV regardless. Beyond that though there hasn't been all that much non-negligible deviation.

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He's not a static character, he has a bit of a downward arc. Let's not make the rash assumption just yet that D&D won't let that arc happen.

I think they are very subtly allowing that to happen. Tyrion isnt swaggering around anymore and hes wallowing and just about every conversation he has with someone is about him. By the time Tywin gets it, Tyrion should be full on self pitying fuck face. I hope anyway.

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I think they are very subtly allowing that to happen. Tyrion isnt swaggering around anymore and hes wallowing and just about every conversation he has with someone is about him. By the time Tywin gets it, Tyrion should be full on self pitying fuck face. I hope anyway.

I do think he IS noticeably less glib this season.

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I'm kind of okay with this deviation. Although I can see the upset by many because assuming Tyrion told her they were to married, and of course he did, then that eliminates the entire Sansa/Tyrion convo before and makes it less believable that she would not comply fully with the wedding. I think this deviation is not such a problem. Although Tyrion is a fan favorite by many (Peter Dinklage plays it so well) I think most people can see and understand why Sansa would not fully comply and go through with the wedding. I think they can still make this a very powerful affair.

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It is just everything added up together is making it so he is simply a good character without any greyness.

What scenes and actions from the books (up to this point in the show) makes Tyrion more 'gray' than we've already been shown that the series isn't doing?

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What scenes and actions from the books (up to this point in the show) makes Tyrion more 'gray' than we've already been shown that the series isn't doing?

From Minsc post #104: Tyrion was always somewhat grey even before ASOS with things such as arming the Vale Mountain People to raid and pillage the Vale's smallfolk, breaking Marillion's fingers, giving Joffrey the antler men, slapping Shae, killing Simon, threatening to beat and rape Tommen, etc.

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This seems to me one of those instances when the TV show is doing a much poorer job than the books in the 'show, don't tell' department. We have a lot of Tyrion telling everybody that Sansa been dealt the worst hand, but they are not really showing that it is worse for her than the other 3 being married off. The way Sansa was informed of her i,pending marriage in the books really showed the horror.

I have been OK with Loras not being in the KG at this point of the show, especially as they have not given him any brothers. He doesn't need to be in the KG whilst he hangs around KL, except that he served to remind Jaime of his younger self. But when Tywin threatened to order Loras into the KG it quite took me out of a scene I had been enjoying. That is not a book-to-screen issue I have with it, but a 'show-canon is of itself weird' objection. Tywin can just order someone to swear a vow forsaking their inheritance? The kingsguard is not a penal colony, and even if someone gets sent to the Nights Watch they have usually committed a crime or lost a war, not been sent by allies that are relying on their family for food and armies (as the QoT was reminding Tyrion just last week).

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I liked the way they handled the scene. Sansa crying at the end is better than watching her break down in front of Tyrion.

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I have been OK with Loras not being in the KG at this point of the show, especially as they have not given him any brothers. But when Tywin threatened to order Loras into the KG it quite took me out of a scene I had been enjoying. That is not a book-to-screen issue I have with it, but a 'show-canon is of itself weird' objection. Tywin can just order someone to swear a vow forsaking their inheritance? The kingsguard is not a penal colony, and even if someone gets sent to the Nights Watch they have usually committed a crime or lost a war, not been sent by allies that are relying on your family for food and armies (as the QoT was reminding Tyrion just last week).

I had wondered about Tywin ordering Loras, too, even Aerys asked Jaime didn't he? Especially if Loras is the heir, just seemed like something that wouldn't be done.

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But when Tywin threatened to order Loras into the KG it quite took me out of a scene I had been enjoying. That is not a book-to-screen issue I have with it, but a 'show-canon is of itself weird' objection. Tywin can just order someone to swear a vow forsaking their inheritance? The kingsguard is not a penal colony, and even if someone gets sent to the Nights Watch they have usually committed a crime or lost a war, not been sent by allies that are relying on their family for food and armies (as the QoT was reminding Tyrion just last week).

Yeah, that was stupid seeing how push come to shove the Tyrells are much more powerful then Tywin is at the moment. Honestly, I was expecting the QOT to mention that if Tywin tries that then she, Margaery, Loras, and the Tyrell armies will have to return to Highgarden to discuss the matter with Mace thus reminding Tywin without the Tyrells he is finished.

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Yeah, that was stupid seeing how push come to shove the Tyrells are much more powerful then Tywin is at the moment. Honestly, I was expecting the QOT to mention that if Tywin tries that then she, Margaery, Loras, and the Tyrell armies will have to return to Highgarden to discuss the matter with Mace thus reminding Tywin without the Tyrells he is finished.

She didn't have a problem reminding Tyrion exactly what they Tyrells had brought to King's Landing, so it does seem strange that she didn't remind Tywin, too.

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I loved it that in the book she didn't know. And that he DIDN'T go out of his way to warn her. Makes it so much more complex and all the relationships that much more fraught...

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I liked the way they handled the scene. Sansa crying at the end is better than watching her break down in front of Tyrion.

I just started thinking about this more - assuming that they include the part in their wedding where she refuses to kneel for him to put the cloak on her, she would have had more time to stew on the injustice of it all and more courage to rebel in that moment, I guess.

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Yeah, that was stupid seeing how push come to shove the Tyrells are much more powerful then Tywin is at the moment. Honestly, I was expecting the QOT to mention that if Tywin tries that then she, Margaery, Loras, and the Tyrell armies will have to return to Highgarden to discuss the matter with Mace thus reminding Tywin without the Tyrells he is finished.

I suppose he was using Loras's homosexuality to blackmail the Tyrells. When Ollenna mentioned the incest Tywin brushed it off because it undermined the Lannister claim to the throne and the marriage of Marge to Joff. Her breaking his quill might be a clue that this issue is not really over.

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