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sansatyrell

[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

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To get Shae to go psycho jealous.

Is jealous really the right term? It would be hard to think she believes Tyrion loves Sansa, and she knows damn well that Sansa doesn't love Tyrion.

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I suppose he was using Loras's homosexuality to blackmail the Tyrells. When Ollenna mentioned the incest Tywin brushed it off because it undermined the Lannister claim to the throne and the marriage of Marge to Joff. Her breaking his quill might be a clue that this issue is not really over.

The thing is I don't believe he has the power to blackmail the Tyrells, seeing how if he pisses off Mace and family the Reach could just march up and sack both Casterly Rock and King's Landing while Tywin can only watch. Nor does it seem like it is any secret (besides to Sansa) that Loras is gay.

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I thought it was a great subtle love triangle scene, without going over the top. Well done. It sets up Shea doing something out of revenge. I really liked that scene.

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Is jealous really the right term? It would be hard to think she believes Tyrion loves Sansa, and she knows damn well that Sansa doesn't love Tyrion.

Yeah but she has to hide all the time and play out the charade while Tyrion publically (sort of) marries Sansa. Book Shae was fine with it. Show Shae in no way will be fine with it. Show Shae wanted Tyrion and her to escape together and just say fuck it all to Westeros but Tyrion explains to her that this is what he was born to do. And now she has to take the backseat to some 16-year old girl. It's expected she will be jealous and resentful.

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Has Sansa been told about Winterfell being burned or her brothers' deaths yet?

Wasn't that after the marriage in the book version?

I can't remember. :dunce:

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Wasn't that after the marriage in the book version?

I can't remember. :dunce:

I am pretty sure she knows about the sacking of Winterfell and the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon prior to her wedding.

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This seems to me one of those instances when the TV show is doing a much poorer job than the books in the 'show, don't tell' department. We have a lot of Tyrion telling everybody that Sansa been dealt the worst hand, but they are not really showing that it is worse for her than the other 3 being married off. The way Sansa was informed of her i,pending marriage in the books really showed the horror.

I have been OK with Loras not being in the KG at this point of the show, especially as they have not given him any brothers. He doesn't need to be in the KG whilst he hangs around KL, except that he served to remind Jaime of his younger self. But when Tywin threatened to order Loras into the KG it quite took me out of a scene I had been enjoying. That is not a book-to-screen issue I have with it, but a 'show-canon is of itself weird' objection. Tywin can just order someone to swear a vow forsaking their inheritance? The kingsguard is not a penal colony, and even if someone gets sent to the Nights Watch they have usually committed a crime or lost a war, not been sent by allies that are relying on their family for food and armies (as the QoT was reminding Tyrion just last week).

I understood it as in Tywin offering it to Loras, who would be too happy to accept. However, that's not stated that way and, indeed, it makes no sense than the Hand of the King has such a power.

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I am pretty sure she knows about the sacking of Winterfell and the "deaths" of Bran and Rickon prior to her wedding.

Doesn't Joffrey make fun of her for that sometime before her marriage? IIRC it revolves around him having a cup with a sigil of all the Great Houses and mentions that they should replace the Direwolf with the Kraken because of how the Greyjoys took Winterfell and "killed" Bran and Rickon.

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Is jealous really the right term? It would be hard to think she believes Tyrion loves Sansa, and she knows damn well that Sansa doesn't love Tyrion.

It's hard to tell whether it's pure jealousy, a pure desire to protect Sansa from predatory men, or some combination of the two, but the seeds are definitely being planted for Shae to have a huge problem with Tyrion's intentions towards Sansa. If I wasn't sure after 3x02 with Shae's hackles being raised with Tyrion referring to Sansa as a great beauty, I sure was after 3x06 when Shae suspiciously demanded to know why Tyrion needed to speak with Sansa alone, even to the point of forgetting her "cover" as Sansa's handmaiden and forgetting to address him as "milord."

I suspect we'll know more after 3x07, where it's been indicated that Shae will be "chafing at Tyrion's new situation." There will probably be some big Tyrion/Shae discussion (more likely argument) over the marriage where Shae will spell out her concerns.

If Shae's feelings tend more towards jealousy than towards an outraged desire to protect Sansa from Tyrion, Shae's sentiments about the marriage might also drive a wedge between her and Sansa. We were also reminded this episode that Shae told Sansa back in 2x06 not to trust her, and Sansa sweetly stated that she trusted Shae anyway. Foreshadowing?

We have a lot of Tyrion telling everybody that Sansa been dealt the worst hand, but they are not really showing that it is worse for her than the other 3 being married off.

What's to show? Isn't it visually self-explanatory? Of the four, Sansa's the only child, and she's the only one marrying 1) a dwarf and 2) someone old enough to be her parent. Just the shot of them in frame speaks for itself. There's all the other stuff, obviously, (prisoner, abused by Joffrey, Lannisters are at war with her family, hates King's Landing, wants to be as far away from the Lannisters as possible, Tyrion's reputation for boozing and whoring, etc. etc.), but in terms of "showing" why she's the one who's the worst off, that's all they really need to do. If that's not enough for you, they've also made a point in Season 3 of showing Sansa constantly surrounded by a pair of Lannister guards, visually emphasizing her status as a prisoner.

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Doesn't Joffrey make fun of her for that sometime before her marriage? IIRC it revolves around him having a cup with a sigil of all the Great Houses and mentions that they should replace the Direwolf with the Kraken because of how the Greyjoys took Winterfell and "killed" Bran and Rickon.

That cup was a gift from the Martells at Joffrey's wedding, IIRC.

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That cup was a gift from the Martells at Joffrey's wedding, IIRC.

Ah okay, I just remember Joffrey being a dick about the cup and I thought it was before the RW.

What's to show? Isn't it visually self-explanatory? Of the four, Sansa's the only child, and she's the only one marrying 1) a dwarf and 2) someone old enough to be her parent. Just the shot of them in frame speaks for itself. There's all the other stuff, obviously, (prisoner, abused by Joffrey, Lannisters are at war with her family, hates King's Landing, wants to be as far away from the Lannisters as possible, Tyrion's reputation for boozing and whoring, etc. etc.), but in terms of "showing" why she's the one who's the worst off, that's all they really need to do. If that's not enough for you, they've also made a point in Season 3 of showing Sansa constantly surrounded by a pair of Lannister guards, visually emphasizing her status as a prisoner.

Quite frankly, I have seen the most people feel sorry for Loras on TWOP then anyone else in the four matches.

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Ah okay, I just remember Joffrey being a dick about the cup and I thought it was before the RW.

It only really makes sense after the RW, since that essentially seals the fate of the Starks (At least that's what everyone believes since Bran and Rickon are thought to be dead and the male line extinguished).

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Maybe Shae will think that the marriage was Tyrion's idea and then she will tell Sansa who will have one more reason to dislike him, this time on a personal level .

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It only really makes sense after the RW, since that essentially seals the fate of the Starks (At least that's what everyone believes since Bran and Rickon are thought to be dead and the male line extinguished).

You are correct, I don't know why I thought that.

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Quite frankly, I have seen the most people feel sorry for Loras on TWOP then anyone else in the four matches.

So? TWOP isn't necessarily representative of the viewership.

I just started thinking about this more - assuming that they include the part in their wedding where she refuses to kneel for him to put the cloak on her, she would have had more time to stew on the injustice of it all and more courage to rebel in that moment, I guess.

I don't think the cloak exchange will make it into the show. I could see Sansa refusing to kneel for the kiss, though. If you look at the layout of the Great Sept, there are several levels. The lowest level is where all the wedding guests stand, and then there are (seven, I assume) sets of stairs leading up to another level, and then another set of stairs leading to the uppermost level. If you look very carefully, one of the sets of steps leads up to something that looks very like an altar. I'm guessing this is where Tyrion and Sansa are standing when they get married. Rather than having Tyrion climb on somebody's back to kiss her, I'm thinking Tyrion has to ascend several steps to be at the right height to kiss her, which would make for an absurd visual.

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So? TWOP isn't necessarily representative of the viewership.

Just saying that a segment of viewership doesn't think Sansa is getting the worst out of the deal.

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Just saying that a segment of viewership doesn't think Sansa is getting the worst out of the deal.

Well, short of the writers getting their hands on a pile of Hypno-toads, viewers are going to think what they're going to think. A (blessedly small) portion of the readership of the books thinks that Sansa and Littlefinger should totes hook up, even though GRRM goes to considerable pains to depict the relationship as creepy, manipulative, and abusive. Does that mean that GRRM is falling down on the job, because some readers have an opinion he has failed to head off at the pass 100%? I think it's silly to blame the writers for viewers coming to their own conclusions about things. It doesn't mean that the writers failed to do their jobs or didn't "show" something adequately. I guarantee that at any given moment, "a segment of viewership" is always going to think something that isn't reflected in the writing. That's pretty much how it works.

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I think the show wanted to hold off on the interaction b/t Sansa and Tyrion. Other then Cersei and Tyrion they have made an effort to minimize the number of times characters interact, which I love. Thats one of the fun things about KL is that there is usually a ton of cool character together in one place. The show has given us the opporunity to see a lot of interaction that we never saw. So in Tyrion and Sansa case I think they want your impression of the two together to be really shaped by the wedding scene.

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I think the show wanted to hold off on the interaction b/t Sansa and Tyrion. Other then Cersei and Tyrion they have made an effort to minimize the number of times characters interact, which I love. Thats one of the fun things about KL is that there is usually a ton of cool character together in one place. The show has given us the opporunity to see a lot of interaction that we never saw. So in Tyrion and Sansa case I think they want your impression of the two together to be really shaped by the wedding scene.

To be fair, Tyrion and Sansa don't interact at all in ASOS until 30 seconds before their wedding proper, so the show has already deviated from that by writing Tyrion as giving Sansa some advance notice (and giving some space in Episode 7 for the fallout of that, both from Sansa's and Shae's perspectives). Granted, it's not much advance notice, if the Red Wedding is supposed to be two weeks from 3x06 and Sansa and Tyrion get married before that, but to be fair it seems like there isn't much of a time lapse between Tyrion and Cersei finding out in 3x05 and Tyrion telling Sansa in 3x06.

I agree that they're not writing a lot of non-book Tyrion/Sansa interactions, but there were no non-book Tyrion/Sansa scenes in Season 2 except for the very brief interaction in the Sandor/Sansa deleted scene that was supposed to go in 2x03 (and which got the axe anyway). Besides, it diminishes the shock value of the engagement if Tyrion and Sansa have Season 3 scenes before the engagement is conceived.

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Just saying that a segment of viewership doesn't think Sansa is getting the worst out of the deal.

Just saying that a segment of viewership doesn't think Sansa is getting the worst out of the deal.

Probably because Tyrion is unambiguously wonderful guy on the show instead of who he is in the books.

And WTF is TWOP?

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