[SPOILERS] Tyrion and Sansa

[Versiroth]

The way I saw it, they were talking about Loras and Cersei marrying from the beginning of the scene, and the QoT was rejecting it.

It wasn't until Tywin threatened to put Loras in the Kingsguard that he busted out the pen and paper. So I took it as, since the QoT was rejecting the offer, he was going to write an order to put Loras in the KG, and so she finally conceded. And she was basically saying the opposite, that she would rather Loras we'd Cersei than see him end up in the KG.

Edit: Just rewatched that scene. Tywin says "So, shall I draw up the order? Or do you consent to this match?" He was definitely about to write an order putting Loras in the KG. Lady Olenna breaking the pen was definitely her consenting to marry Loras to Cersei.

AH. I'm not really sure where they're going with this then. Maybe once Loras finds out, he will ask Margery to convince Joffrey to name him to the Kingsguard. Or maybe the QoT will give him the choice and he will decide to join the KG himself.

[coco lionne]

I agree that it is a little confusing right now as to why Loras still isn't in the KG. The only explanation I can think of at this point is that, while the QoT has accepted the match, Loras still hasn't.

Maybe Cersei convinces Joffrey to draw up the order for Loras to join the KG? That would be a nice F-- you to both her father AND the Tyrells.

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

I don't know. I happen to think the way everything is playing out for Sansa now is more tragic than in the books.

Did you not notice how Sansa was utterly distrought as she watched Littlefinger sail away? Knowing that his ship was supposedly her last chance to leave King's Landing and she turned it down because she believed she was going to be married to Loras Tyrell?

The tragedy being driven home by the fact that we know what's coming. Littlefinger comes back to "rescue" her after the PW (we know this as book readers) and as show watches we know Littlefinger is the last person she should ever be getting on a boat with.

And he's the one secretly responsible for all her unhappiness.

That's more tragic to me.

I very much enjoyed the surprise that was sprung on Sansa in the books, but I was actually okay with this deviation. Just one person's opinion though. :)

[coco lionne]

I don't know. I happen to think the way everything is playing out for Sansa now is more tragic than in the books.

Did you not notice how Sansa was utterly distrought as she watched Littlefinger sail away? Knowing that his ship was supposedly her last chance to leave King's Landing and she turned it down because she believed she was going to be married to Loras Tyrell?

The tragedy being driven home by the fact that we know what's coming. Littlefinger comes back to "rescue" her after the PW (we know this as book readers) and as show watches we know Littlefinger is the last person she should ever be getting on a boat with.

And he's the one secretly responsible for all her unhappiness.

That's more tragic to me.

I very much enjoyed the surprise that was sprung on Sansa in the books, but I was actually okay with this deviation. Just one person's opinion though. :)

That is a great point, definitely didn't think about it that way. Much more subtle. Though I did think the way it unfolds in the book would make for a wonderfully dramatic scene! :)

[Rhaenys Sand]

Agreed, they can't do any fault with Tyrion because R'hllor forbid that they make Tyrion, Jon or Dany their posterchildren look bad...

[1234567]

Agreed, they can't do any fault with Tyrion because R'hllor forbid that they make Tyrion, Jon or Dany their posterchildren look bad...

Personally I can't wait for Robb and Cat to find out about the Tyrion and Sansa forced marriage, and to hear Robb going, thank god she is married to Tyrion, perhaps I should make him my heir, because he is a decent man. Of course Cat, guilty about Jon, will persuade Robb to make Jon his heir instead. The way the whitewashing of Tyrion is going and the way they have messed up Robb's arc to the point that they are changing every thing to stop him looking bad, I wouldn't be surprised to see D&D do this.

[Colonel Green]

One little bit I liked in that scene is Sansa's alarmed reaction to Shae demanding to know why Tyrion wants her to leave the room, and attempting to apologize/cover for her -- since, as far as Sansa knows, Shae is just some random servant, the sort of person it wouldn't typically behoove to question one of the kingdom's big kahunas.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Are we sure he told her they were going to get married? Doesn't he tell her her brothers are dead, or something else happened, or anything really, other than this stupid whitewashing thing? Gosh, I couldn't wait for the scene before their wedding where Sansa was told ten minutes before she was going to marry Tyrion. Really, they are going out of their way to make Sansa look bad. The seven gods forbid that she wouldn't like Tyrion Lannister, fan favourite, especially after he so kindly told her beforehand they were going to marry. Do they think this is a mfing game? :(

I really, really dislike this.

[Colonel Green]

Really, they are going out of their way to make Sansa look bad. The seven gods forbid that she wouldn't like Tyrion Lannister, fan favourite, especially after he so kindly told her beforehand they were going to marry.

I think they definitely are trying to make Tyrion look less bad, but I don't think they're trying to make Sansa look bad. Particularly since they've had everybody, including Tyrion himself (indeed, especially Tyrion himself) say that she's getting totally screwed over. Actually, from that perspective it's also notable that TV!Tyrion doesn't have any of his book character's vague hopes that the whole thing might work out okay.

Also, it seems like they want the Tyrion/Sansa wedding (and the accompanying Cersei/Loras stuff, though there really hasn't been any independent focus on that) to be the major King's Landing plot for the season, so they had to string it out longer.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Are we sure he told her they were going to get married? Doesn't he tell her her brothers are dead, or something else happened, or anything really, other than this stupid whitewashing thing? Gosh, I couldn't wait for the scene before their wedding where Sansa was told ten minutes before she was going to marry Tyrion. Really, they are going out of their way to make Sansa look bad. The seven gods forbid that she wouldn't like Tyrion Lannister, fan favourite, especially after he so kindly told her beforehand they were going to marry. Do they think this is a mfing game? :(

I really, really dislike this.

How does this make Sansa look bad? Because the dwarf she's being forced to marry, who consequently belongs to the family that has beheaded her father, is trying to kill her brother, and has held her hostage while she's tormented by this man's nephew, is a witty and charming dwarf that has a mistress on the side and an appetite for whores and drinking.

Tyrion being a great character doesn't change anything. Telling her one day before is even more cruel since she now has to dwell upon it in misery for the day until the presumably come and find her the next day and marry her against her will.

[Masamune]

So are they going to bring Dontos in from the cold and go with the whole rescue subplot in S4? Even though any element of surprise has been lost now that we patently know LF was conspiring to take Sansa with him?

[RedBean]

Agree totally about the whitewashing of both Tyrion and Cersei. Gone are the days when I could look upon Cersei as a real 'villain'. Now I just see a childish spoiled rich girl looking to her father to solve everything, and not at all fit to control that monster she calls her son. And the way they make Tyrion out to be so noble and chivalrous. I hope they at least show one scene with him where he admits that he thinks favourably on the prospect of ruling Winterfell, but I doubt they'll make him say anything that selfish (because hey, who cares if it shows he's an actual 'human being' and not some perfect hero out of the stories who just happens to be a dwarf?). It's like they're taking all the grey out of two richly defined characters. Why don't they realize that part of GRRM's genius is that he can write complex, not-completely-heroic characters that we love to read about. Even if people hate Cersei, that just shows that her character generates enough of a strong reaction to produce that amount of hate. Normal Complete Monster types of characters (like Joffrey or Gregor Clegane) could never produce that amount of hate. They're just not interesting enough. So why on earth are they adding to Joffrey's atrocities just to try and downplay Cersei's craziness? We already know he's a monster. Giving him more screentime is not necessary to point that out.

[Colonel Green]

It's like they're taking all the grey out of two richly defined characters.

I agree about Tyrion, but Cersei in the books was never grey, she's jet black.

[swoosh stark]

I fine with this change. I'm not going to nitpick over ever change from the book

[Minsc]

I am worried how they are going to successfully portray the Lannisters as villains after the death of Joffrey, seeing how he is the only really unlikable "Lannister" on the show.

[Colonel Green]

I am worried how they are going to successfully portray the Lannisters as villains after the death of Joffrey, seeing how he is the only really unlikable "Lannister" on the show.

Tywin's pretty unlikeable at this point, I'd say (though he'll be leaving fairly shortly after Joffrey).

I've been wondering that as well, though, especially concerning Cersei. Her chapters in AFFC are some of my favourites for the in-depth portrayal of her narcissistic personality and some of the series' best black comedy, and I'm kind of worried the show will ruin them by trying to make us sympathize with her.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Agree totally about the whitewashing of both Tyrion and Cersei. Gone are the days when I could look upon Cersei as a real 'villain'. Now I just see a childish spoiled rich girl looking to her father to solve everything, and not at all fit to control that monster she calls her son. And the way they make Tyrion out to be so noble and chivalrous. I hope they at least show one scene with him where he admits that he thinks favourably on the prospect of ruling Winterfell, but I doubt they'll make him say anything that selfish (because hey, who cares if it shows he's an actual 'human being' and not some perfect hero out of the stories who just happens to be a dwarf?). It's like they're taking all the grey out of two richly defined characters. Why don't they realize that part of GRRM's genius is that he can write complex, not-completely-heroic characters that we love to read about. Even if people hate Cersei, that just shows that her character generates enough of a strong reaction to produce that amount of hate. Normal Complete Monster types of characters (like Joffrey or Gregor Clegane) could never produce that amount of hate. They're just not interesting enough. So why on earth are they adding to Joffrey's atrocities just to try and downplay Cersei's craziness? We already know he's a monster. Giving him more screentime is not necessary to point that out.

Normal complete monster types aren't given what seemed like a third of a whole book's PoVs so that we had to read this already crazy lady's descent into further levels of madness. The reason why Cersei draws so much hate is because she's unreasonably stupid. To the degree where it's almost unbelievable at times. Joff, Ramsay, they're just cruel and vile people. Cersei draws a lot of hate because having to read someone's incredibly delusional thoughts is maddening.

[Minsc]

Tywin's pretty unlikeable at this point, I'd say (though he'll be leaving fairly shortly after Joffrey).

I would somewhat disagree in some of my discussions with the unsullied many of them like him seeing him as harsh but fair and somewhat honorable.

[Envie]

I'm with the camp that doesn't really care whether they went with the book version and told Sansa the bad news 10 minutes before her shotgun wedding or not. I don't really think having Tyrion tell her is 'whitewashing' his character that much. He already shows a more compassionate side later on when he refuses to force Sansa to have sex with him anyways so I fail to see how this one small scene change is making that big of a difference.

[sansatyrell]

One little bit I liked in that scene is Sansa's alarmed reaction to Shae demanding to know why Tyrion wants her to leave the room, and attempting to apologize/cover for her -- since, as far as Sansa knows, Shae is just some random servant, the sort of person it wouldn't typically behoove to question one of the kingdom's big kahunas.

ha I really liked that bit as well! a nice little touch in a scene i otherwise didn't really like