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(Book Spoilers) The whitewashing of Cersei

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I'm not even sure we know Cersei didn't order the bastards or Tyrion's death. In the latter case its her word versus Varys, so she very well might be lying. I mean she's not likely to tell the truth to tyrion.

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Honestly, my guess is that they want the fact that she later becomes this insane/paranoid person to be shocking. If she's always been this ruthless villain on the show, then her going bat shit crazy later on would just feel like more of the same. Right now, they're making it seem that she's a a victim of circumstance. Later on, after Joffrey's and especially Tywin's death, she'll become the instigator. It give her journey more over all depth.

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Cersei still has plenty of bad things to do in the future seasons, she will be a villain and hopefully also kind of crazy :). I am a lot more worried about the whitewashing of Tyrion. In the books it's difficult to detect that Tyrion is not a nice guy. The POV structure can be deceptive, we miss Tyrion's evil deeds, we think he is wrongfully accused by the others.... but actually he isn't. In ADWD most of us came to the shocking conclusion that he is also a villain: he kills, rapes, whores, a kinslayer, and many more. In the show he does none of these things. I am sure they will still have him be a kinslayer.... but that's just not enough, most of the viewers will agree with that killing. :(

As they should. Tywin is a cold blooded tyrant. The fact that some of you guys have grown fond of Tywin, the Boltons, etc, doesn't mean that those characters aren't villains. Also, Tyrion was never a villain. He was a person who always tried to do the right thing, but when threatened, was willing to do what ever it takes to protect himself or the people he loves (like killing the singer who was threatening to sing his song of Shae).

Also, who did he rape?

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As they should. Tywin is a cold blooded tyrant. The fact that some of you guys have grown fond of Tywin, the Boltons, etc, doesn't mean that those characters aren't villains. Also, Tyrion was never a villain. He was a person who always tried to do the right thing, but when threatened, was willing to do what ever it takes to protect himself or the people he loves (like killing the singer who was threatening to sing his song of Shae).

Also, who did he rape?

He rapes the wench in Illyrio's mansion and then the prostitute near Volantis. Sure, they were offered by their owners, but that doesn't make it ok. He took pleasure in their dislike of him. And a bonus, he keeps saying that he wants to rape Cersei,... and at the moment he means it.

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For the first three books you only see Cersei through other peoples eyes and opinions. Unreliable narrators at their finest. It's no surprise to me that seeing her through the same lens as we see every other character, she comes across as more human and sympathetic.

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He rapes the wench in Illyrio's mansion and then the prostitute near Volantis. Sure, they were offered by their owners, but that doesn't make it ok. He took pleasure in their dislike of him. And a bonus, he keeps saying that he wants to rape Cersei,... and at the moment he means it.

I dont have the book handy but my memory is that he scares the gil at Illyrio and then we jump to his having dinner. We dont know what if anything happened.

also I dont recall him raping anyone in Volantis, I think she didnt like him but she was still doing what she was paid for

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Honestly, my guess is that they want the fact that she later becomes this insane/paranoid person to be shocking. If she's always been this ruthless villain on the show, then her going bat shit crazy later on would just feel like more of the same. Right now, they're making it seem that she's a a victim of circumstance. Later on, after Joffrey's and especially Tywin's death, she'll become the instigator. It give her journey more over all depth.

I would agree, but I think they're taking the "victim of circumstances" a tad too far, especially this season. Last season we saw the real Cersei during Blackwater, the one who was bitter, manipulating, a bully and was gloating to a little girl she'll be raped. This season she's even softer than in season 1, all she does is wait and worry which is underwhelming.

As for Tyrion, I've never saw him as a downright villain, but yes he's whitewashed too which is a shame because his book counterpart is way more interesting. However, he was always an anti-hero/anti-villain protagonist depending on how you look at it, but a protagonist nonetheless. Cersei is never meant to be cheered on, and while she can come across as sympathetic, she's still a villain.

For the first three books you only see Cersei through other peoples eyes and opinions. Unreliable narrators at their finest. It's no surprise to me that seeing her through the same lens as we see every other character, she comes across as more human and sympathetic.

But then we get inside her head, and she seems to be exactly what we thought she would be.

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I agree with the OP. I just posted something similar in the Tyrion and Sansa thread, but the big problem to me is that there is no way book Cersei would ever let Tyrion believe that Joff was the one who ordered Moore to kill him. She protected every despicable thing Joff did in the books! It doesn't matter who ordered Moore to kill Tyrion, which we never get a true answer about in the books (I actually believe that LF whispered in Joff's ear to do it since LF was out to get Tyrion since the beginning and Moore is from the Vale and probably LF's creature all along). The point is that in the books Tyrion always believes its Cersei and we the readers are left with some speculation about it because Cersei would never admit something like that to Tyrion. One of book Cersei's main characteristics is that she covered for every horrible thing Joff did as if it was no big deal, which caused Joff to spiral out of control.

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I agree with the OP. I just posted something similar in the Tyrion and Sansa thread, but the big problem to me is that there is no way book Cersei would ever let Tyrion believe that Joff was the one who ordered Moore to kill him. She protected every despicable thing Joff did in the books! It doesn't matter who ordered Moore to kill Tyrion, which we never get a true answer about in the books (I actually believe that LF whispered in Joff's ear to do it since LF was out to get Tyrion since the beginning and Moore is from the Vale and probably LF's creature all along). The point is that in the books Tyrion always believes its Cersei and we the readers are left with some speculation about it because Cersei would never admit something like that to Tyrion. One of book Cersei's main characteristics is that she covered for every horrible thing Joff did as if it was no big deal, which caused Joff to spiral out of control.

This way works better for TV Cersei's arch. If she's always been crazy, then there's nothing jarring about how she acts after Joffrey's death. As is, she'll think that Tyrion killed Joffrey and it will make her paranoid to ever trust anyone again.

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But then we get inside her head, and she seems to be exactly what we thought she would be.

Not really. When we get inside her head she is a very different character, quite unhinged and crazy. She isn't there yet at this point.

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It's less whitewashing than making her a bit more sane, IMO. I've always thought GRRM went too far with Cercei, she ended up being a caricature. If the show can rein her in a little, she<ll become a more interesting character.

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This way works better for TV Cersei's arch. If she's always been crazy, then there's nothing jarring about how she acts after Joffrey's death. As is, she'll think that Tyrion killed Joffrey and it will make her paranoid to ever trust anyone again.

Hmm IDK. It's possible but I think it makes her descent into madness more unrealistic right now because there's not much basis for it. There were some hints of it during the Battle of the Blackwater, but that's it. I guess we'll have to see how it ends up playing out.

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Hmm IDK. It's possible but I think it makes her descent into madness more unrealistic right now because there's not much basis for it. There were some hints of it during the Battle of the Blackwater, but that's it. I guess we'll have to see how it ends up playing out.

This. I'm not saying she has to be flat out crazy, I'm saying they're making her too sane and too much of a victim. Especially this season.

Not really. When we get inside her head she is a very different character, quite unhinged and crazy. She isn't there yet at this point.

So you thought she wasn't unhinged before getting a POV? Because I didn't think she was particularly balanced.

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I thought she was black/white, just like everyone else. And events of the story eventually make her go crazy.

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For the first three books you only see Cersei through other peoples eyes and opinions. Unreliable narrators at their finest. It's no surprise to me that seeing her through the same lens as we see every other character, she comes across as more human and sympathetic.

Very well put.

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The reason why the show is showing that Joffrey did it, is to make Cersei believe that Tyrion killed Joffrey in the PW (at least to normal to viewers).

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Never confirmed, but it was heavily implied. And it's also never openly attributed it on Joffrey, which is a significant change.

Yep. (Cersei's supposed hand on it) it comes from an ommitted line from the books in the show, when Tyrion threatens Cersei over Tommen.

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1. We don't know if it was Joffrey or Cersei in the books.

2. We don't know if it was Joffrey or Cersei in the show.

3. Cersei's first reaction to her betrothal this episode was "we could kill them both".

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Realize this - that Joffrey is a tool. He is cruel in the dumbest way possible. If he wants to kill someone, he does it the brute force way.

Cersei, on the other hand, has been known to use poison to carry out her hits (King Robert) and has a little bit more finesse. She wouldn't tell the Kingsguard to just go and kill the hand of the king in front of his whole army, as Tyrion pointed out. If Cersei wanted Tyrion dead, she would have poisoned him. Also, as someone pointed out earlier, in the battle of Blackwater, Joffrey and Mandon Moore both look towards Tyrion after saying "I trust you'll represent me on the battlefield" or something to that effect indicating a possible agreement for Mandon Moore to attempt to kill Tyrion.

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