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(Book Spoilers) The whitewashing of Cersei

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1. We don't know if it was Joffrey or Cersei in the books.

2. We don't know if it was Joffrey or Cersei in the show.

3. Cersei's first reaction to her betrothal this episode was "we could kill them both".

She said it in jest. Or that was my take on it.

Realize this - that Joffrey is a tool. He is cruel in the dumbest way possible. If he wants to kill someone, he does it the brute force way.

Cersei, on the other hand, has been known to use poison to carry out her hits (King Robert) and has a little bit more finesse. She wouldn't tell the Kingsguard to just go and kill the hand of the king in front of his whole army, as Tyrion pointed out. If Cersei wanted Tyrion dead, she would have poisoned him. Also, as someone pointed out earlier, in the battle of Blackwater, Joffrey and Mandon Moore both look towards Tyrion after saying "I trust you'll represent me on the battlefield" or something to that effect indicating a possible agreement for Mandon Moore to attempt to kill Tyrion.

This is all good, but it's speculation. In the books it's never stated outright and we're free to speculate and interpret it as we please. Someone pointed out it could have been done to justify Cersei believing Tyrion killed Joffrey which is possible. It's another attempt to woobify her though, because it gives foundation to her accusations.

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She said it in jest. Or that was my take on it.

Or did she? Now that Loras is the only male heir to Highgarden and QoT has agreed to his marriage, I fear for his life.

Cersei has had husbands killed before.

(Personally I think Joffrey will make Loras a Kingsguard to spite Tywin, just throwing this other possibility out there).

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Again this all sounds like more unnecessary complaining. She IS still a villain.

Yeah well, it's my opinion and I'm not going to change it to crowd-please. You're also very free to stay out of the topic if it bothers you.

Or did she? Now that Loras is the only male heir to Highgarden and QoT has agreed to his marriage, I fear for his life.

Cersei has had husbands killed before.

(Personally I think Joffrey will make Loras a Kingsguard to spite Tywin, just throwing this other possibility out there).

Thing is, I don't believe anything will come of it. Loras will join the Kingsguard.

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Or did she? Now that Loras is the only male heir to Highgarden and QoT has agreed to his marriage, I fear for his life.

Cersei has had husbands killed before.

(Personally I think Joffrey will make Loras a Kingsguard to spite Tywin, just throwing this other possibility out there).

She didn't agree to his marriage. Tywin was about to write up the wedding contract when the QoT broke his quill. He will now be named to the Kingsguard. Which is also why it doesn't matter that Tyrion told Sansa about their betroval. With Loras (the only Tyrell male and heir in the TV series) out of the picture, the Tyrells can't do anything about it anyway.

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If they turn her into anything other than what she is in the books I may sit out next season and read the books again LOL

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She didn't agree to his marriage. Tywin was about to write up the wedding contract when the QoT broke his quill. He will now be named to the Kingsguard. Which is also why it doesn't matter that Tyrion told Sansa about their betroval. With Loras (the only Tyrell male and heir in the TV series) out of the picture, the Tyrells can't do anything about it anyway.

Sansa already knowing about the wedding it's also another way to whitewash Cersei, because now we won't get that scene in which she torments her about marrying Tyrion.

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They're taking away Cersei's agency. When was the last time she actually did anything herself? And I don't mean just threaten or try to interfere, I mean having an impact. When was it - Season 1? After that Tyrion took over, now it's Tywin, and all Cersei does is sit around being passive and reactive and bitching about things rather than trying to do anything about them. Oh, and waiting for Jaime to show up so he can fix things for her.

Oh, many of the decisions Cersei made in the books were stupid ones. And yes, she got men to do many of them for her. But she was a woman in a man's world who still found ways to make things happen, good or bad. Show Cersei doesn't. Her teeth have been pulled.

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People are getting the impression those two have an actual loving bond somewhere, and it's very much against what defines them. They hate each other, with an undying passion, too.

yep, they seem to almost have affection for each other, or at least a grudging respect.

I'm not sure which people you're talking about, but no one in my group of unsullied is under any illusion that those two have a loving relationship. Anyone who reads the scene that way wasn't paying attention last week.

This meeting was a meeting of 2 people in similar predicaments, trying to find a way out, weighing their options. Cersie didn't admit defeat, if anyone is ready to give up it's Tyrion. He said it "I'm fucked". Cersie, to me at least, looked like one who hasn't yet given up.

The thing is, many of the show watchers AREN'T paying close attention. "boobs, knights, battles" is what they get from most of the episodes.

My husband was saying how you can tell they are teaming up now, and deep down they do care about each other. I was like, no, they hate each other and constantly want to kill each other.

And I'm in the camp that they are softening show cersei too much, and going in the opposite direction with Jamie. I really hated the scene last season where they had Jamie kill his cousin after the dude talked about how much he admired him, and at the same time portrayed Cersei as somewhat sympathetic, like she was just trying to do the right thing for her kids. The show has it backwards... JAMIE is the one doing what he does for love, Cersei because she's an evil mofo.

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Cersei still has plenty of bad things to do in the future seasons, she will be a villain and hopefully also kind of crazy :). I am a lot more worried about the whitewashing of Tyrion. In the books it's difficult to detect that Tyrion is not a nice guy. The POV structure can be deceptive, we miss Tyrion's evil deeds, we think he is wrongfully accused by the others.... but actually he isn't. In ADWD most of us came to the shocking conclusion that he is also a villain: he kills, rapes, whores, a kinslayer, and many more. In the show he does none of these things. I am sure they will still have him be a kinslayer.... but that's just not enough, most of the viewers will agree with that killing. :(

The vast majority of readers don't view Tyrion as a villain.

He rapes the wench in Illyrio's mansion

No he doesn't.

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I seriously don't understand why people are eager to portray Tyrion or Cersei as worse humans. It changes the story a bit, but it changes it for the better imo.

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Cersei in the novels was just an idiot. Not threatening, or mysterious, or sympathetic. Just a predictable idiot. Show Cersei is far more interesting.

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I don't like television Cersei at all...I know Lena Heady is very popular and the majority of readers love her, but I don't like her adaptation or D&D's take on Cersei. I feel like they are "improving" a character than doesn't need to be improved. I also know a lot of people see Cersei as a cartoon villain in the books and that Heady or D&D are "humanizing" her, but I personally never thought book Cersei was all that one-dimensional. Sure, she's crazy and cruel and mean, but she's a deeply wounded human being and I have always been able to empathize with her to a degree. The fact that Cersei in the show looked horrified that Joffrey killed those bastards and that Heady has made comments along the lines of, "She's so scared for her son" just disappoint me. The Cersei I know loves Joffrey's fierce attitude and sees Tommen as the weak one. When I read the books, Cersei is one of the few characters where I don't have the actor in my head as I read. They just seem nothing alike. I've said before that I can relate to Cersei in some ways though - such as how she's been treated by her father and her family dynamics (minus the incest, obviously!) so I'm biased.

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I don't like television Cersei at all...I know Lena Heady is very popular and the majority of readers love her, but I don't like her adaptation or D&D's take on Cersei. I feel like they are "improving" a character than doesn't need to be improved. I also know a lot of people see Cersei as a cartoon villain in the books and that Heady or D&D are "humanizing" her, but I personally never thought book Cersei was all that one-dimensional. Sure, she's crazy and cruel and mean, but she's a deeply wounded human being and I have always been able to empathize with her to a degree. The fact that Cersei in the show looked horrified that Joffrey killed those bastards and that Heady has made comments along the lines of, "She's so scared for her son" just disappoint me. The Cersei I know loves Joffrey's fierce attitude and sees Tommen as the weak one. When I read the books, Cersei is one of the few characters where I don't have the actor in my head as I read. They just seem nothing alike. I've said before that I can relate to Cersei in some ways though - such as how she's been treated by her father and her family dynamics (minus the incest, obviously!) so I'm biased.

I think that Lena Heady has missed Cersei's real motive in the books. It isn't "protecting her children". Deep down, the true reason she is protective of her children is because she is ruling through them, since she can't rule in her own right. She doesn't truly love them, she loves the power they give her. If you read her character superficially (as many of the actors have, if they have even read the books at all) at first glance, it may seem like her one good attribute is her love for her children, but a deeper look at her character shows that she only loves herself.

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They're taking away Cersei's agency. When was the last time she actually did anything herself? And I don't mean just threaten or try to interfere, I mean having an impact. When was it - Season 1? After that Tyrion took over, now it's Tywin, and all Cersei does is sit around being passive and reactive and bitching about things rather than trying to do anything about them. Oh, and waiting for Jaime to show up so he can fix things for her.

Oh, many of the decisions Cersei made in the books were stupid ones. And yes, she got men to do many of them for her. But she was a woman in a man's world who still found ways to make things happen, good or bad. Show Cersei doesn't. Her teeth have been pulled.

This. Like button very much needed. And I think that while in the last two season she was softened, she was still herself as we saw glimpses of who she was underneath it all - the interaction and bullying of Sansa helped a lot in this sense. But this season she's just a watered down version of the worst way to portray her.

yep, they seem to almost have affection for each other, or at least a grudging respect.

The thing is, many of the show watchers AREN'T paying close attention. "boobs, knights, battles" is what they get from most of the episodes.

My husband was saying how you can tell they are teaming up now, and deep down they do care about each other. I was like, no, they hate each other and constantly want to kill each other.

Thank you. I'm glad I'm the only one who noticed it gives this sort of impression on people who haven't read the books. And I don't understand why they can make Jaime or Joffrey look worse than in the books, but Cersei has no bite.

I seriously don't understand why people are eager to portray Tyrion or Cersei as worse humans. It changes the story a bit, but it changes it for the better imo.

How does it change it for the better? Honest question.

Cersei in the novels was just an idiot. Not threatening, or mysterious, or sympathetic. Just a predictable idiot. Show Cersei is far more interesting.

Again, that's not true at all. In the books she's unhinged, complex, unintentionally funny, pathetic, fierce and very resilient. "Threatening, mysterious or sympathetic" is a simplified version, a cliche character. She's actually much better than that in the books, I love to hate her. In the show she just annoys me by now. And I stress, by now. I wasn't averse to some changes that made her more rounded and enjoyed her until this season when her characterisation completely fell apart. She's nothing like her book counterpart atm.

EDIT: grammar

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I think that Lena Heady has missed Cersei's real motive in the books. It isn't "protecting her children". Deep down, the true reason she is protective of her children is because she is ruling through them, since she can't rule in her own right. She doesn't truly love them, she loves the power they give her. If you read her character superficially (as many of the actors have, if they have even read the books at all) at first glance, it may seem like her one good attribute is her love for her children, but a deeper look at her character shows that she only loves herself.

In the I'm not sure its just the power, I think she really only loves her children, and Jaime, as extensions of herself. When Jaime says in SoS that Cersei will hate him looking less like her when his hair is shaved, that was the real clincher for me. She basically wants to replicate herself, and also to basically have sex with her male mirror image.

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In the I'm not sure its just the power, I think she really only loves her children, and Jaime, as extensions of herself. When Jaime says in SoS that Cersei will hate him looking less like her when his hair is shaved, that was the real clincher for me. She basically wants to replicate herself, and also to basically have sex with her male mirror image.

I agree with this too, its a combination of power-lust and narcissism that makes her defend her children so fiercely. But definely not true love and affection for her children like show-Cersei. I think Lena Heady has a very superficial view of what makes Cersei tick, and it comes across in the show.

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She didn't agree to his marriage. Tywin was about to write up the wedding contract when the QoT broke his quill. He will now be named to the Kingsguard. Which is also why it doesn't matter that Tyrion told Sansa about their betroval. With Loras (the only Tyrell male and heir in the TV series) out of the picture, the Tyrells can't do anything about it anyway.

I thought Lady Olenns broke his Quill to prevent him from signing the decree making Loras a member of the Kingsguard

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What about Tyrion? Isn't it enough that half this board tries and fails to whitewash him on a daily basis? Very interested to see how the show plays with the conclusion to Shae's story.

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