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(Book Spoilers) The whitewashing of Cersei

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They've been doing it since S1, most likely to create a contrast to unhinged Cersie following Joff's death. The show can never make Cersie as cartoonishly evil as she is in AFFC, they can however unhinge her mentally, and ranch up the menace. To achieve the contrast they've decided to soften her until then.

This, I agree with this approach. They are developing her in bunches. They still show moments of cruelty like, "Power is Power" to Little Finger and her being the catalyst for Eddard's Execution.

I don't believe she is telling Tyrion the truth about trying to have him killed, she looked away far too long and is hopeful that Tyrion will blame Joffrey. Varys would not and did not lie, any man who can have a sorcerer found, tortured, kindapped and shipped to him to finish off is not playing with Tyrion and not inaccurate.

Varys played Ros like the piece she was, Ros was too stupid to know she was getting played. Moves done, Ros gone, folks show how cruel Varys can be and how cruel LF can be. These are the two best game players in the series on TV or in the books.

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Again, that's not true at all. In the books she's unhinged, complex, unintentionally funny, pathetic, fierce and very resilient. "Threatening, mysterious or sympathetic" is a simplified version, a cliche character. She's actually much better than that in the books, I love to hate her. In the show she just annoys me by now. And I stress, by now. I wasn't averse to some changes that made her more rounded and enjoyed her until this season when her characterisation completely fell apart. She's nothing like her book counterpart atm.

EDIT: grammar

Fair enough. I don't think she's a 1 dimensional character, but I certainly don't find her as interesting as you do.

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This, I agree with this approach. They are developing her in bunches. They still show moments of cruelty like, "Power is Power" to Little Finger and her being the catalyst for Eddard's Execution.

All of these things happened in season 1. What has she done since?

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All of these things happened in season 1. What has she done since?

The "Power is power." line is actually from season two. I believe she also tried to 'mercifully' kill her son, Tommen, during Blackwater. Oh, and she also arrested Ros and threatened to have her murdered if anything happened to Joffrey during the battle... So yeah; she's done quite a bit to establish herself as as much of a villain as anyone else in the show (other than Joffrey, obviously, and now Ramsey).

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The "Power is power." line is actually from season two. I believe she also tried to 'mercifully' kill her son, Tommen, during Blackwater. Oh, and she also arrested Ros and threatened to have her murdered if anything happened to Joffrey during the battle... So yeah; she's done quite a bit to establish herself as as much of a villain as anyone else in the show (other than Joffrey, obviously, and now Ramsey).

Not just her son. She planned to have all the noble woman killed with her. Sansa and every other young noble, and I believe their servants as well. Cersei's point of view was either "I am actually saving you from a worse fate" or "I'm going down my way and I'm taking you with me." depending on your point of view.

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The "Power is power." line is actually from season two. I believe she also tried to 'mercifully' kill her son, Tommen, during Blackwater. Oh, and she also arrested Ros and threatened to have her murdered if anything happened to Joffrey during the battle... So yeah; she's done quite a bit to establish herself as as much of a villain as anyone else in the show (other than Joffrey, obviously, and now Ramsey).

Yes, you're right I was unsure (I watched season 1 and 2 back to back). What has she done this season though? I wrote it quite a few times now, I was mostly fine with season 1 and 2 Cersei. She was somewhat more sympathetic, but she was not the victim who sits around, panicking, waiting to be saved and bonding with a brother she's supposed to hate. You listed all the ways she's established herself as a villain so far, why the change of tune now?

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Yes, you're right I was unsure (I watched season 1 and 2 back to back). What has she done this season though? I wrote it quite a few times now, I was mostly fine with season 1 and 2 Cersei. She was somewhat more sympathetic, but she was not the victim who sits around, panicking, waiting to be saved and bonding with a brother she's supposed to hate. You listed all the ways she's established herself as a villain so far, why the change of tune now?

Because the Tyrell family has - at least temporarily - unified the Lannister family. It's also essentially her fault that Sansa & Tyrion are getting married, so... And it isn't as if Cersei (in the show) was ever portrayed as one-dimensionally as she is in the books. She's a more sympathetic character in some ways, sure, but that's as simple matter of her being more fleshed out. Which has the simultaneous advantage of being interesting, in my opinion. Also keep in mind that the first half of ASoS also features very little Cersei to begin with... I'm confident we'll see her fall apart as she does in AFfC, and in the meantime I like that she's getting more facets to her character.

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Her character is too cowed and weak. As long as she turns into a Cersei similar to book cersei after Tywin is no longer around, im cool

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Because the Tyrell family has - at least temporarily - unified the Lannister family. It's also essentially her fault that Sansa & Tyrion are getting married, so... And it isn't as if Cersei (in the show) was ever portrayed as one-dimensionally as she is in the books. She's a more sympathetic character in some ways, sure, but that's as simple matter of her being more fleshed out. Which has the simultaneous advantage of being interesting, in my opinion. Also keep in mind that the first half of ASoS also features very little Cersei to begin with... I'm confident we'll see her fall apart as she does in AFfC, and in the meantime I like that she's getting more facets to her character.

In early SoS she doesn't feature much, but in the show she's been appearing in every episode. Doing nothing. So, since they seem to be able to come up with scenes she didn't have in the books, I don't quite understand why these scenes can't be more character defining, rather than portraying her as cliche misunderstood 1D woobie who's waiting for her brother to come back- which is most ridiculous, since when he's back she can't wait to be rid of him, and no it's not just because "he's changed". It's because Cersei wants people around based on how useful they are.

As for book Cersei being 1D... I have a serious issue with people seeing it this way. Why does a character need to be sympathetic to be interesting? Some of the best literary characters have very few redeeming qualities and you might hate them for it, that doesn't mean they're 1D. It's a misconception.

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What about Tyrion? Isn't it enough that half this board tries and fails to whitewash him on a daily basis? Very interested to see how the show plays with the conclusion to Shae's story.

The entire Lannister clan (Tywin included) is being whitewashed or softened with the exception of Joffrey, who is being made worse by having Cersei's actions (the slaughter of Robert's bastards, the hint that he put the hit on Tyrion) imputed to him.

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Jaime isn't. If anything last season they made him worse. His development this season is book canon, no whitewashing.

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I'll take the foxy killer-queen over Headey's downtrodden wife routine any day of the week, ta very much.

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Jaime isn't. If anything last season they made him worse. His development this season is book canon, no whitewashing.

I think in Season one we got more foreshadowing on the depth of Jaime and the genesis of the "Kingslayer". By this I am thinking of the Robert, Barristan, Jaime conversation when they discussed Aerys' last words and his interaction with Jory.

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Jaime isn't. If anything last season they made him worse. His development this season is book canon, no whitewashing.

Agreed. It's interesting that they're too doing it with Cersei and Tyrion though. I actually understand the motivations behind the idea to go that route with Cersei since it actually adds dimensions to her character. Whereas with Tyrion, they're actually reducing him to simply being a good guy, in a terrible family, who just happens to whore around. I don't see the purpose behind that decision; it's not as if television audiences are unaccustomed to 'root' for evil characters like they were in the past, that barrier has long since been crossed (i.e., Tony Soprano, Walter White, etc.).

In any case, Cersei went from almost unjustifiably black to somewhat justifiably gray, Tyrion went from somewhat justifiably gray to almost white, and Jaime, as in the novels, remains somewhat justifiably gray.

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I think in Season one we got more foreshadowing on the depth of Jaime and the genesis of the "Kingslayer". By this I am thinking of the Robert, Barristan, Jaime conversation when they discussed Aerys' last words and his interaction with Jory.

That is still only a hint about what would later be revealed not them deleting something unfavorable that he did, as he still pushes Bran and kills Jory and others.

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No he doesn't.

Well, let me give a quote, even if this is a TV show topic:

The girl’s mouth tightened. She despises me, he realized, but no more than I despise myself. That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection. A little honest loathing might be refreshing, like a tart wine after too much sweet.

“I believe I have changed my mind,” he told her. “Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I’ll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly.” He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. “Do you moan when you are being fucked?” he asked the bedwarmer.

“If it please m’lord.”

“It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

What exactly do you think happened that night??

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Cersei and Tyrion's relationship is being portrayed as somewhat less hateful then in the books. I don't have any problem with that.

Tyrion in the show doesn't say some of the..."unworthy" - as Jaime would put it...things to Cersei that he does in the books, so there's no reason for their relationship to be as hateful as it is in the books, Until the PW and Tywin's death anyway.

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They're doing a good job with her. Cersei was able to tolerate Tyrion's presence until Joffrey's death, which she immediately blamed on him. After that, her unease caused by the "Little Brother" prophecy came to the forefront.

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I think in Season one we got more foreshadowing on the depth of Jaime and the genesis of the "Kingslayer". By this I am thinking of the Robert, Barristan, Jaime conversation when they discussed Aerys' last words and his interaction with Jory.

But that's not whitewashing, that's developing what's already there, and just letting the viewer appreciate it a bit earlier.

That's the thing about Jaime's character development in the books. Yes, some of it is him become much more grey due to events in the story, but a good deal of it is also shedding light on who he was before, and showing the reader that the Jaime of GoT/CoK was ALREADY greyer than the reader thought, due to the nature of the perspectives he was viewed in.

Basically what I'm saying is, fleshing out Jaime's backstory earlier doesn't "whitewash" Jaime the PERSON, because he IS the same person he was in the books at that point, we just know more about him.

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Cersei and Tyrion's relationship is being portrayed as somewhat less hateful then in the books. I don't have any problem with that.

Tyrion in the show doesn't say some of the..."unworthy" - as Jaime would put it...things to Cersei that he does in the books, so there's no reason for their relationship to be as hateful as it is in the books, Until the PW and Tywin's death anyway.

Y'know, I don't think the show is suggesting they don't despise each other, because they clearly still do in the show even with some of these less confrontational moments.

I think what the show is trying to illustrate with these scenes is that, as much as they hate each other, they're also the only people around who can appreciate each others' problems (because those problems are largely the same and largely stem from their father).

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