Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Khal Tommen

(BOOK SPOILERS) The Rose and The Lion

Recommended Posts

I dont think anyone could deny that the Olenna/Tywin conversation was beautifully acted, as well as included some good conversation pacing with the Queen of Thorns being as witty as ever,

However, I am growing slightly tiresome of the Loras gay-bomb being dropped every episode. The audience has long identified Loras as homosexual, i didnt mind that the Loras/Renly relationship was only hinted at in the books, however it seems that everyone South of the Wall knows of Loras's sexual orientation. So what was your thoughts on the scene? and the portrayals of the Tyrells in general?

Just to clear things before concluding, I am no way a purist, I love the shows, Love D & D and Georgie. I Just have certain qualms regarding the show, other than that, and maybe Aidan Gillens portrayal of Littlefinger annoy me, but other than that another superb episode !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Olenna and Tywin's scene was gold. I was sort of on the fence about how I felt about ShowOlenna, but she sold me there. I found that I was actually disappointed that there isn't another Tyrell son because Tywin thwarting Olenna was a little...odd. It was just weird, especially since Loras had already been in the Rainbow Guard and presumably have been unable to marry and have heirs, but it's like they forgot about that or something. I just wonder how Cersei will get out of having to wed Loras. It's really too bad they don't have a second Tyrell son off screen, at least.

I agree, I'm also very annoyed with how they continue to portray Loras. I find it really insulting at times. It's like they have a list of every gay male stereotype they could think of and have decided to use all of them. There's not much blatant homophobia in the books, so that's a sharp change as well. It's all really frustrating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree on the Loras point. I once argued on another thread that the show didn't define Renly by his sexuality, but it's become clear that they certainly have in Loras' case. When he started talking about the things he loved about weddings, and mentioned tournaments, I had a small hope that he would start talking about his passion for fighting and jousting. Sadly, this wasn't the case. Instead we got Loras the medieval fashionista with a penchant for fringe sleeves.

Come on, HBO. Loras is an expert swordsman who just happens to be gay. That's it. You don't need to beat it into us that he's not into women. Oh, speaking of which- Why is Sansa the only one that seems oblivious to his sexuality?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought in that scene it seemed that he is bored by weddings generally except for the tournament-side of things. He sort of brightens up briefly when he remembers that there may be some fighting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought in that scene it seemed that he is bored by weddings generally except for the tournament-side of things. He sort of brightens up briefly when he remembers that there may be some fighting.

I got the same impression.

But generally speaking, I think that so far Loras has been the weakest link in the Tyrell characters. And it seems such a waste, especially as Margaery has been better developed than I expected and QoT is a cool character as well. However, with Loras D&D have settled with the most cliched and unchallenging gay stereotypes imaginable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loras, one of the best fighters in the realm knows more about gowns and fringed sleeves than a girl who's been dreaming about being a fairytale princess ever since she was born. Cuz he's so gay amirite? Oh and he's so grossed out by women and oh he's promiscuous and gehhh. Shit's growing tiresome.

I don't care much for Olenna anymore, they seem to be completely mssing the mark on what made her character so great in the books and trying way too hard to make her look witty. I was really looking forward to her scene with Tywin but it fell completely flat. The quill snapping at the end was so cheesy.

Margaery is the only Tyrell they got right. She's not the same character as in the books, but she's still interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That entire scene was so weird.

As if Olenna would imply Tywin had homosexual experiences as a child.

As if Tywin would threaten Olenna with putting Loras on the KG after his own experiences.

As if Olenna would just give in to his demands (which is also odd, because that's the second time she's just let the Lannisters roll over her).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i did not enjoy that scene much. Tywin and Olenna could talk about more interesting things than Loras being gay and Tywin's experiences...I expected more from 2 of the most clever people in Westeros

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That entire scene was so weird.

As if Olenna would imply Tywin had homosexual experiences as a child.

As if Tywin would threaten Olenna with putting Loras on the KG after his own experiences.

As if Olenna would just give in to his demands (which is also odd, because that's the second time she's just let the Lannisters roll over her).

Olenna provoking Tywin on his youthful experiences seems an awkward ploy , she would have known that he would coolly deny it.

On the other hand Tywin nearly flying off the handle about Jamie and Cersei's incest , more than he has ever before, seemed to revel that he knows.

( "Methinks the lady doth protest too much!" tho it's guy in instance.)

I don't know about the last observation , Highgarden has gotten their hooks into the throne , in time, who knows what will happen? (ASoIaF George makes it kind of blunt. But then Catherine the Great just flat took the Russian throne away from her idgit husband Peter III. Catherine de Medici held the French throne as Queen Regent for a long time before her sons were finally able to move her out of the way.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont get the argument that Loras' inclusion in Renly's guard somehow means he loses his rights. Makes no sense, considering the guard is now defunct.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Terrible scene. The dialogue was completely implausible throughout. Olenna is way too smart to provoke Tywin in such a childish and offensive for him way. And Tywin blackmailing the Tyrells while the war is still going on and he is pretty much at their mercy (if they join Robb, the Lannisters are completely screwed) is even dumber.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can the King or his Hand forcibly place someone in the Kingsguard? It would seem rather counter-intuitive to have anyone in your sworn bodyguard who didn't volunteer to be there. It seems very much the source of position you are either offered or you ask to be given rather than relying on any forcible conscription. Their meant to be the Elite of the Elite, ferchrissakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loras should have joined the kingsguard at the end of season two. He goes before the entire court and skips the whole, "Your Grace, I would have the honor of a place in your Kingsguard."

If they had added those 13 words, this scene would have been better, with Cersei being offered for Mace or Willas Tyrell. Instead the Knight of Flowers is about to marry both Sansa and Cersei. HAHA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really liking Lady Olenna!

It was hilarious when she asked Tywin if he had ever had an under the blanket feel with his cousins or squires whilst growing up!

:bowdown:

When in doubt, go with gay jokes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A really good point made by Elio and Linda in their review, that i didnt immediately pick up on, was when the Mad King chose Jamie as a Kings guard. This infuriates Tywin to the point where he moves back to Casterly Rock with Cersei and resigns as hand of the king.

I hate to be a whinge, and in no way am I telling anyone how to run their own show, but a witty comment by Olenna about the simularity in both that past situation and the current Loras/Kingsguard one could have realy made the scene great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A really good point made by Elio and Linda in their review, that i didnt immediately pick up on, was when the Mad King chose Jamie as a Kings guard. This infuriates Tywin to the point where he moves back to Casterly Rock with Cersei and resigns as hand of the king.

I hate to be a whinge, and in no way am I telling anyone how to run their own show, but a witty comment by Olenna about the simularity in both that past situation and the current Loras/Kingsguard one could have realy made the scene great.

There's a similarity, but also a big difference: Jaime volunteered for the Kingsguard and Aerys simply jumped at the chance to piss on Tywin some more. Obviously, the 'eldest son joins the Kingsguard and robs a lord of his heir' thing would be the same, but really, that move was on Jaime and his massive miscalculation in figuring out the best way to keep screwing his sister.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Problem I have with that Olenna/Tywin chat pulled over from the nitpick thread: The more I think about it the more puzzled I get because I can barely think of a way that house Tyrell (at least the name) is not definitely going extinct now as of show canon (could happen in the books too sure, but a bit early to spoil that in season 3/4 and it's pretty much the exact opposite of Growing Strong).

Only solutions I see:

Allerie and Mace better get busy again. Will be a bit hard since they're both in their forties. (?)

Loras never joins the kingsguard. (??)

They invent a younger brother for Mace later, except then Marg needs to stay childless forever which is totally incompatible with wanting to be "the queen". (???)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A really good point made by Elio and Linda in their review, that i didnt immediately pick up on, was when the Mad King chose Jamie as a Kings guard. This infuriates Tywin to the point where he moves back to Casterly Rock with Cersei and resigns as hand of the king.

I hate to be a whinge, and in no way am I telling anyone how to run their own show, but a witty comment by Olenna about the simularity in both that past situation and the current Loras/Kingsguard one could have realy made the scene great.

Similar situation but actually even worse, since Tywin still at least had Tyrion as an option (even if he doesn't like it) but the Tyrells have supposedly nothing after Loras.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×